[N M Mechanical]

Scott and or any of the other top breeders.
First I have to agree with you Scott having the dogs go after everything in the woods is a plan in the as* but my question is
When you breed out the tracking of fur how does the pups do on cripple birds. And when I say puppy anything before force fetching so natural ability.
Or one not have anything to do with the other
Just asking
Nick
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Rugergundog]

Nick
How do your DK's handle fur in the woods? I guess im unsure of how it is a hassle unless its just a distraction form only hunting birds.

My GSP does not actively "hunt" squirrels or other fuzzy critters but will retrieve wounded or kills. He points rabbits until the "hop"..or flush, ahahah whatever you call it when a bunny takes off; he then works just like a beagle, hot pursuit with the vocals and all. He will come off the chase on command. No desire to chase deer, never really had the desire to go after them; but when he did once we had a "understanding" early on.

My Brittany....year 1 he was a chipmunk hunting fool!

 

[birdhuntingbtch]

Scott and or any of the other top breeders.
First I have to agree with you Scott having the dogs go after everything in the woods is a plan in the as* but my question is
When you breed out the tracking of fur how does the pups do on cripple birds. And when I say puppy anything before force fetching so natural ability.
Or one not have anything to do with the other
Just asking
Nick
Posted via Mobile Device

IMO, all hunting dogs started out the same, for use with birds as the need for the more versatile dog came to be, the more outcrossing took place, to breed in the fur.

My dogs are pretty much the same as they were in the 1500, with the exception of a couple of approved outcrosses to the Pointer.

Most of my dogs show little to no interest in fur or ducks. But on their own nautral ability (prior to force fetch) their desire is high to hunt, point, track, wild birds or training birds - cripple or dead. Some of them use the air more and some use the ground but they all get the job done.

I can teach them to track duck and fur but it is not a natural response. As long as the dog is bred to hunt, they should be able to track cripples. If you are asking if you can breed out the fur in a DD or DK I guess what man has put in, they can always carefully take out.

 

[Mickey Finn]

I quess I really never understand what a person would want a dog that fits the above discription for.At least in the US anyway. Why go through the trouble of teaching a dog things that you or the dog will never apply.
I can see where a person might have the need or desire to have a dog sit in a boat or blind and do water work but beyond that I quess I don't get it.
My thinking has always been a pointing dog that chases or shows interest in fur is just interupting the hunt.I want mine focused on game birds and only that. Anything else and it is gonna get corrected.If I wanted or needed a dog to persue fur I would get a breed of dog that is better suited for that game and enviorment.

I always laugh when I see people call these DK or DD's a different breed.LOL They are GSP's with a different registry trained for a different format.

LOL I can't understand why someone wouldn't want a versatile dog. By the way, DKs are pure breeds, I believe. DDs however, are not.

Good luck in the late season.

 

[crosswind]

Scott and or any of the other top breeders.
First I have to agree with you Scott having the dogs go after everything in the woods is a plan in the as* but my question is
When you breed out the tracking of fur how does the pups do on cripple birds. And when I say puppy anything before force fetching so natural ability.
Or one not have anything to do with the other
Just asking
Nick
Posted via Mobile Device

Nick it really isn't bred out of them at all. It is more about training it out of them. you make the corrections when the opportunities arise and you will find that after while they will totally ignore the fur.
I still like to see my dogs track but it better be a bird he is tracking.
Besides shorthairs I have owned lots of pointers and setters over the years also. I have seen lots of birds that get tracked and pointed where the pointers and setters seem to miss them.Not always the case but not at all uncommon that I see that.

 

[birdhuntingbtch]

LOL I can't understand why someone wouldn't want a versatile dog. By the way, DKs are pure breeds, I believe. DDs however, are not.

Good luck in the late season.

Quote: "It must be understood that the versatile dog was not developed to replace or improve upon any other hunting breed. Rather, it was developed to provide the on-foot hunter who, for one reason or another, chooses not to maintain a kennel of specialists, with a dog that will serve as a dependable hunting companion in the pursuit of a variety of game in a variety of enviornments." from the NAVHDA AIMS Book

I own 5 dogs which are considered "Versatile" dogs; they will retrieve anything I send them on (duck, squirrel, rabbits etc) and go where ever I send them (water or land), they will track crippled birds and running pheasants.

I train on the versatile standards because it pushes my dogs to be the best they can be. It's nice to know that if you drop a bird on the other side of a flood creek in late March during a NSTRA event, they will go, get it and bring it back to hand. BUT, I do not consider them "versatile", they are upland bird dogs.

Over the years I have focused my efforts in being versatile in having good friends that have Griffons, GSP's, Begals and other hounds. Some are duck/geese hunters first, others rabbits first, I put my focus on field work. Most of us train side by side, each of us knows are strengths and short comings. When I get to the point where I can have 10 dogs, one will be a Catahoula he will be my fur hound.

 

[Rugergundog]

For those of you who prefer your dog to not locate and work fur..........is it due to no desire to hunt/harvest fur?

Though i test my dogs the number one purpose is "meat". And I enjoy rabbit just as much as grouse. And my dogs seem to enjoy them just as much too.

 

[griffondog]

For those of you who prefer your dog to not locate and work fur..........is it due to no desire to hunt/harvest fur?

Though i test my dogs the number one purpose is "meat". And I enjoy rabbit just as much as grouse. And my dogs seem to enjoy them just as much too.

With all the coyotes around your house harassing your hounds why not turn the tables on them? If your dogs will listen, do a little tolling and calling on them. It normally works better during breeding season, but can bring the yotes in year round. You don't want the dogs to fight the coyotes just lure them back to gunning range. I would think this would add the big V infront of your dogs resume. I think coyotes are the ultimate furry critter a dog can work in this state.

Griff

 

[Rugergundog]

I would totally love to do that sort of coyote hunting with my dog....but i would not have a clue on how to go about it. Ill have to do some reading and maybe networking.

And yes the coyotes are abundant out back and the opportunity abundant.

 

[Shotgun Kennel]

I have been very proud of my dogs when we have been in woods and one of them stops at a tree and looks up. If I am with a hunter who is uneducated about the virtues of a versatile dog and they start to move on because the dog has treed a squirrel, I make sure one of us shoots the squirrel. The question is always asked about shooting squirrels over "Bird dogs." I enjoy explaining, I have versatile dogs and the fur does not interfere with feathers. After a couple points on grouse or woodcock, they get they understand and love hunting with our dogs. I have never found it to be a pain. It just helps enhance the hunting experience.

Our dogs have also blood tracked deer with no ill effects. However, I have no problem whith those who do not want their dogs on anyting but birds. To each their own.

 

[Rugergundog]

Blood tracking deer is a HUGE asset for me. I am so darn terrible at it.....more like pathetic at it. I just don't have the patience to go slow enough to look for little speckles of blood. I have been utilizing my friend and his DD to this point and it is awesome to see her work a spot only i seen the deer go hours and hours earlier.
I get a real bad gut feelings if i don't find a wounded deer...so if my versatile dog can help with that.....GREAT! We will resume our blood work come Jan 1 after the close of bird season.

 

[Mickey Finn]

Blood tracking deer is a HUGE asset for me. I am so darn terrible at it.....more like pathetic at it. I just don't have the patience to go slow enough to look for little speckles of blood. I have been utilizing my friend and his DD to this point and it is awesome to see her work a spot only i seen the deer go hours and hours earlier.
I get a real bad gut feelings if i don't find a wounded deer...so if my versatile dog can help with that.....GREAT! We will resume our blood work come Jan 1 after the close of bird season.

Better to wait for spring to do your blood work.

ATB

 

[Rugergundog]

Yea i understand the majority of the work is best to do in spring outside but i have access to a very large indoor facility that i can resume the foundations of the tracking inside.

 

[Mickey Finn]

Yea i understand the majority of the work is best to do in spring outside but i have access to a very large indoor facility that i can resume the foundations of the tracking inside.

I was thinking of the scenting conditions. I don't know what they would be like indoors. I guess if the humidity is high enough. It could be a good way to go.

ATB

 

[Rugergundog]

well it won't be as good as outside....but it sure beats doing nothing.

 

[Mickey Finn]

well it won't be as good as outside....but it sure beats doing nothing.

I could use a couple days of doing nothing.

ATB

 

[Rugergundog]

Real nice factual based response from another forum i posted the same topic.

I consider the Deutsch Kurzhaar of today different that the DK base genetics of 100years ago. and I have 2 arguments for this.
the weak one is 100years ago the DK group didn't have a required testing system for hunting performance on all stock, therefore the DK of today has had a lot of genetic filtering from the 100year ago base.

my stronger argument for the Deutsch Kurzhaar gene pool being different today from 100yrs ago is simply the genetic additions, prior to the late 1950's the liver Kurzhaar (the DK) and the black Kurzhaar (Prussian Kurzhaar PK) were totally separate breeds, and many GSP lines imported in the 30's, 40's, and 50's (foundation of many popular FT lines) simply had no Prussian Kurzhaar (black DK/PK) and when the PK and DK became the same breed crossing wasn't popular for a number of years.
Thus today what we can the Deutsch Kurzhaar gene pool is different that what was called 100yrs ago the Deutsch Kurzhaar gene pool

The Prussian Kurzhaar was first introduced to the DD in 1934, but out-crossing to it was limited compared to the Deutsch Kurzhaar until the 2 German Kurzhaars (shorthairs) became 1 Kurtzhaar breed.

 

[dquindt]

Real nice factual based response from another forum i posted the same topic.

I consider the Deutsch Kurzhaar of today different that the DK base genetics of 100years ago. and I have 2 arguments for this........

Fact, huh? It seems like anything written on the web that supports your beliefs is somehow a "fact".

So let's talk about "facts". The site you lifted that quote from is a copyright protected. Using someone's quotes without giving them credit is impolite; stealing content from a copyright protected site, without neither the author or owner's permission is just plan wrong. That's fact #1.

Which leads me to fact #2. The quote you posted as a "fact" was written by who? Do you know this person's actual name, or just an internet handle? What is his source material? You don't know, do you? So other than the comment agrees with you, you have no basis for which to call the comment a "fact", do you? How do you know that he isn't just making things up? What about the other poster who has since replied, disagreeing with some of the claims made in the original post, which you have deemed as "facts"? Whose "facts" are right? The "fact" is you don't know, do you?

Here's a pedigree from a DK; a very popular DK sire as a matter of fact. One that is approved for breeding; passed the KS test as well. Go down to the bottom of his dam's side. See any names that sound familiar?

http://www.vomriverwoods.com/PDFs/Chance_vom_Riverwoods.pdf

See, here's the problem. When the DK folks got started here in the US, the most influential club member needed to get some pups on the ground. So, the DKV allowed him to breed one of his DKs to a couple of full-blooded American GSPs, from field trial lines no less, and register the offspring as DKs. The DKV (the DK club in Germany) had no problem with it; neither did the FCI.

So, if the DK and the GSP are two different breeds, are you saying the DKV allowed cross-breeding to take place? Are you saying that this dog, and all of his offspring are not "pure" DKs? :yikes:

If you are interested in the DK tests, or get your jollies by hunting like the Germans do, by all means get yourself a DK. I know a number of folks who get their kicks by hunting their DKs using German guns, giving commands in German and turning their dogs loose on any fur available when birds are scarce. I have no problem with that at all; they breed some very nice dogs with that particular style of hunting in mind.

But don't start grabbing stuff off of the internet for which you have no idea of its accuracy nor its author and stuffing it in our faces as "fact" just because it happens to agree with your pie-in-the-sky theories.

And don't even think about stealing from my post and posting it on Versatiledogs or elsewhere. You've deemed these things as facts; now start defending them.

FWIW,
Dave

Dave Quindt
Plainfield, IL

 

[Mickey Finn]

Fact, huh? It seems like anything written on the web that supports your beliefs is somehow a "fact".

So let's talk about "facts". The site you lifted that quote from is a copyright protected. Using someone's quotes without giving them credit is impolite; stealing content from a copyright protected site, without neither the author or owner's permission is just plan wrong. That's fact #1.

Which leads me to fact #2. The quote you posted as a "fact" was written by who? Do you know this person's actual name, or just an internet handle? What is his source material? You don't know, do you? So other than the comment agrees with you, you have no basis for which to call the comment a "fact", do you? How do you know that he isn't just making things up? What about the other poster who has since replied, disagreeing with some of the claims made in the original post, which you have deemed as "facts"? Whose "facts" are right? The "fact" is you don't know, do you?

Here's a pedigree from a DK; a very popular DK sire as a matter of fact. One that is approved for breeding; passed the KS test as well. Go down to the bottom of his dam's side. See any names that sound familiar?

http://www.vomriverwoods.com/PDFs/Chance_vom_Riverwoods.pdf

See, here's the problem. When the DK folks got started here in the US, the most influential club member needed to get some pups on the ground. So, the DKV allowed him to breed one of his DKs to a couple of full-blooded American GSPs, from field trial lines no less, and register the offspring as DKs. The DKV (the DK club in Germany) had no problem with it; neither did the FCI.

So, if the DK and the GSP are two different breeds, are you saying the DKV allowed cross-breeding to take place? Are you saying that this dog, and all of his offspring are not "pure" DKs? :yikes:

If you are interested in the DK tests, or get your jollies by hunting like the Germans do, by all means get yourself a DK. I know a number of folks who get their kicks by hunting their DKs using German guns, giving commands in German and turning their dogs loose on any fur available when birds are scarce. I have no problem with that at all; they breed some very nice dogs with that particular style of hunting in mind.

But don't start grabbing stuff off of the internet for which you have no idea of its accuracy nor its author and stuffing it in our faces as "fact" just because it happens to agree with your pie-in-the-sky theories.

And don't even think about stealing from my post and posting it on Versatiledogs or elsewhere. You've deemed these things as facts; now start defending them.

FWIW,
Dave

Dave Quindt
Plainfield, IL

Rough night?

Rugergundog is trying to have a discussion. What he posted, while clearly an opinion. Appears to fall under "fair use." This is an exception to copyright claims.

Unlike many, he desires to use his versatile dog as it was intended. There by doing a service to the breed. Others, choose to serve themselves. Ultimately doing a disservice to the breed. This is the only fact I've seen.

Judging by the tempo of your post. Your a muckity muck in the dog show world. Not much cause for arrogance. I think.

ATB

 

[dquindt]

Rough night?

Nope, not at all.

Rugergundog is trying to have a discussion.

That's fine, but shopping around for the answer someone is looking for, then posting it on another board as a "factual based response" with no idea how factual it is, or who even wrote it, is rather self-serving.

Unlike many, he desires to use his versatile dog as it was intended.

So one has to ponder whether or not the DK and the GSP are separate breeds in order to use his dog as a versatile dog?

as it was intended

Here we go again.....

Judging by the tempo of your post. Your a muckity muck in the dog show world.

Funniest thing I've read in a while; thank you for that. Couldn't be further from the truth.

Rugerdog, I have no problem if you're interested in DKs and the German testing systems. But this stuff has been beaten to death over and over; dig around in the archives over at Versatiledogs, or even better yet Gundogforum and you'll find dozens of threads about this.

But throwing out bizarre theoretical questions (i.e. comparing 100 DKs to 100 GSPs, all trained and tested to the DK standards) when you know it's never been done just asks for opinions to be floated as facts and just stirs the pot.

JMO,
Dave