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What will this do for shooters and hunters?If they become all copper they will be very expensive as copper prices are rocketing.Copper at $3.53 lb
one lb = 7000 grains div by 150 grain bullet cost for material is .08 per pc or $80.00 per 1000 for copper.Minus manufacturing,shipping,marketing, oh ya
can't forget about there markups to.

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_5537308

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1606660,00.html

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/16850258.htm


U.S. Military planning to phase it out by 2008
http://www.breadnmolasses.com/atlantictech/id153.html

http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/GreenBullets/GreenBullets.htm
 

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Think they would go more towards something like the Barnes Grenade for hunting, copper with a tin(ish) alloy core. No doubt the antis will use the military change over to ban lead, or at least use it as an arguement for the environmental side.
 

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It is nothing more than the start of the slippery slope. Everyone jumps up and down about lead and the majority of them do not have much knowledge about what the real problem is.

Do they still use lead in the lead/acid automotive batteries or is California going to ban batteries in the Condor areas??

Do they still use lead in the bearings for some automotive engines??

Do they still use lead oxides (the real culprit is the oxides) in the paint that is used for painting battleships and aircraft carriers??
 

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So what if the military phases out lead as long as the replacement material is as good or better than lead from a performance standpoint. I read this is being done to reduce the potential for lead contamination at the various military rifle ranges; I don't seer this as being a negative. Will the cost of ammo go up? Who knows. Once tungsten is widely used, it will achieve an economy of scale and probably won't be that much more expensive.
 

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I think eventually lead will be banned for all uses. no matter what it is used for some anti against what ever crazy agenda their pushing will use it as ammo against those who use lead
 

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Believe that tungsten will be used in big game and premium bullets, not sure if they can make the quantity or have an acceptable price for the small caliber shooters, their bread and butter volume purchasers. Have tried copper bullets (once) and they're OK, just longer and needs its own data for a specific weight. The Grenades sounds similar, Barnes appears to have no specific data yet, just suggestions. Wonder how the added length will react to twist rates?
 

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Bwana said:
I read this is being done to reduce the potential for lead contamination at the various military rifle ranges; I don't seer this as being a negative.
What contamination?? The people who are writing that lead is a contaminant are buying into the fear that lead is pollutes or that lead kills. Lead is OK!!

Lead oxides are the problem! Lead that is in the ground at a gun range does not pollute. Lead that is buried in the bottom of a lake is not a problem.

If lead was such a problem then how come all the people that work at lead-acid battery factories are not falling over dead?? How come the people who work at the bullet manufacturing factories are not all in intensive care??

The news media is more interested in grabbing the attention of the public than it is in actually telling them the entire story. It takes more than one day's worth of reading newspaper articles or watching TV news shows to get the entire picture on lead contamination and what the problem really is.
 

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Just another if it happens, it happens things. Probably should simply take a wait and see approach and deal with it if/when it ever comes.
 

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So why make this change? Here's my take. You connect the dots:

Tungsten is "outrageously abrasive." Normal 20,000 round barrel life of a weapon is significantly shortened by the use of tungsten bullets. Planned obsolescence is the perfect gun-control tool.
Tungsten-tin composite bullets are far different from Mel Gibson's "Patriot" character melting his son's lead soldiers into bullets.
Tungsten is more expensive and rarer than lead, and tungsten bullets are more difficult to make -- both of which, in turn, make tungsten bullets more profitable to manufacture and sell.
If lead is eventually outlawed, as many environmentalists would no doubt love to do, then lead bullets will also go the way of the dodo -- not just for military use. After all, this stuff is dangerous, you can hear them say; we have to outlaw it for the children.


"About 83 percent of both the tin and tungsten being used in the United States is imported. The tin comes from Brazil, Indonesia -- and China, which is the world's largest producer of both tungsten and tin."

There are several minerals of tungsten, the most important are scheelite and wolframite. The main mining area is China, which today accounts for more than two-thirds of the world's supply. Other places with active tungsten mines are Russia, Austria, Bolivia, Peru and Portugal. World production is around 40.000 tonnes per year and reserves are estimated to be around 5 million tonnes. Tungsten is also recycled and it meets 30% of demand.

Effects of tungsten on the Environment

Tungsten metal powder administered to animals has been shown in several studies as not altogether inert. One study found that guinea pigs treated orally or intravenously with tungsten suffered from anorexia, colic, incoordination of movement, trembling, dyspnea and weight loss. This product is not expected to be hazardous for the environment. No specific ecotoxicity data is available for this product.
 

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Wetlandhunter said:
So why make this change? Here's my take. You connect the dots:

Tungsten is "outrageously abrasive." Normal 20,000 round barrel life of a weapon is significantly shortened by the use of tungsten bullets. Planned obsolescence is the perfect gun-control tool.
Tungsten-tin composite bullets are far different from Mel Gibson's "Patriot" character melting his son's lead soldiers into bullets.
Tungsten is more expensive and rarer than lead, and tungsten bullets are more difficult to make -- both of which, in turn, make tungsten bullets more profitable to manufacture and sell.
If lead is eventually outlawed, as many environmentalists would no doubt love to do, then lead bullets will also go the way of the dodo -- not just for military use. After all, this stuff is dangerous, you can hear them say; we have to outlaw it for the children.



Can tungsten bullets be copper jacketed to reduce barrel wear? If tungsten is heavier than lead would not that enhance ballistic performace?
 

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RIVERAT said:
Wetlandhunter said:
So why make this change? Here's my take. You connect the dots:

Tungsten is "outrageously abrasive." Normal 20,000 round barrel life of a weapon is significantly shortened by the use of tungsten bullets. Planned obsolescence is the perfect gun-control tool.
Tungsten-tin composite bullets are far different from Mel Gibson's "Patriot" character melting his son's lead soldiers into bullets.
Tungsten is more expensive and rarer than lead, and tungsten bullets are more difficult to make -- both of which, in turn, make tungsten bullets more profitable to manufacture and sell.
If lead is eventually outlawed, as many environmentalists would no doubt love to do, then lead bullets will also go the way of the dodo -- not just for military use. After all, this stuff is dangerous, you can hear them say; we have to outlaw it for the children.



Can tungsten bullets be copper jacketed to reduce barrel wear? If tungsten is heavier than lead would not that enhance ballistic performace?
Yes they can tungsten is very heavy look at carbide .Depending how thick the copper is the tungsten will not give like lead will.As far as ballistics don't see much data yet.
I really don't think this new style ammo will be for sale to the public.Just my .02.


Tungsten carbide core for small calibre ammunition

Armor-piercing ammunition is used to penetrate hardened armored targets such as body armor, vehicle armor, concrete, tanks and other defenses, depending on the caliber of the firearms. Armor-piercing ammunition consists of a hardened steel, tungsten-carbide, or depleted-uranium penetrator enclosed within a softer material, such as copper or aluminum. Armor-piercing ammunition can range from rifle and pistol caliber rounds all the way up to tank rounds.
Rifle and pistol rounds are usually built around a penetrator of steel or tungsten.
 

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One of the problems with tungsten, in terms of manufacturing (workability) is its melting point. It has the highest melting point of all the metal elements (1650 C or 3002 F). This has a lot to do with the higher cost for any tungsten(metal) product, it is hard to work with and very hard to machine. This is one of the reasons it will never be an economical alternative to lead.

FYI for any golfers out there: your golf balls with "titanium" in them, have no metallic titanium; it is simply the catalyst used to prepare the polymer cover which is left in there after they prepare the golf ball cover.

DM
 

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Discussion Starter #15
duckmeister said:
One of the problems with tungsten, in terms of manufacturing (workability) is its melting point. It has the highest melting point of all the metal elements (1650 C or 3002 F). This has a lot to do with the higher cost for any tungsten(metal) product, it is hard to work with and very hard to machine. This is one of the reasons it will never be an economical alternative to lead.

FYI for any golfers out there: your golf balls with "titanium" in them, have no metallic titanium; it is simply the catalyst used to prepare the polymer cover which is left in there after they prepare the golf ball cover.

DM
Check this link out it shows how they make them from powder-metal.With pictures and process.

http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/GreenBullets/GreenBullets.htm
 

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Huntsman27 said:
Its not something to play with.
Yer no fun.



243, 270 and 30 cal rifle



32 and 38 cal handgun



45 handgun and 45 rifle



-na
 
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