[Old lund]

AJ says your a crack shot doug.

Lol

 

[Wild Thing]

Absolutely not! They allegedly found a CWD positive deer near me 5 years ago. They revoked the MAPR’s which we had enjoyed here for 18 years….they banned baiting (but almost never enforce the ban)….they issued free disease control permits (the first year) … and they have tested thousands of deer since with zero additional CWD positives.

How many times have they changed their CWD Response Plan to suit whatever whims they decide upon from time to time? No thanks - they are all done trying to manage deer on my property.

 

[sparky18181]

Absolutely not! They allegedly found a CWD positive deer near me 5 years ago. They revoked the MAPR’s which we had enjoyed here for 18 years….they banned baiting (but almost never enforce the ban)….they issued free disease control permits (the first year) … and they have tested thousands of deer since with zero additional CWD positives.

How many times have they changed their CWD Response Plan to suit whatever whims they decide upon from time to time? No thanks - they are all done trying to manage deer on my property.

What’s the chance of the baiting ban being rescinded this year. I’m thinking it ll never be rescinded in our area but hey they got the science. Bunch of BS

 

[Lumberman]

Write it down.

Expect another big CWD push by the DNR over the next couple a years. There’s another big junk if funding coming down the federal pipe and all of a sudden the DNR will be all over it again. Then when that funding runs out they won’t care again.

 

[Hillsdales Most Wanted]

Let's hypothetically say a deer in your neighborhood tests positive for CWD or TB, it's an area where the disease hasn't been know to exist previously. The DNR or USDA contacts you and asks to set up feeders on your property where they will have sharpshooters collect more deer for additional sampling. What is your position?

Hell to the NO!!

 

[Tilden Hunter]

I'm in a low deer density area, and surrounded on three sides by land they wouldn't need my permission. I would tell them thanks but no thanks, and that they are probably wasting their time.

 

[Wild Thing]

What’s the chance of the baiting ban being rescinded this year. I’m thinking it ll never be rescinded in our area but hey they got the science. Bunch of BS

Your guess is as good as mine?? I haven’t heard anything that lifting the ban or reinstating MAPR’s is even being considered. Time will tell…

 

[shell waster]

I would say "sure but you have to pay my taxes for the next ten years, otherwise piss off"

 

[jjlrrw]

Let's hypothetically say a deer in your neighborhood tests positive for CWD or TB, it's an area where the disease hasn't been know to exist previously. The DNR or USDA contacts you and asks to set up feeders on your property where they will have sharpshooters collect more deer for additional sampling. What is your position?

Can they test a deer that is not dead? If not maybe work on a test where they can, then tranquilize the deer, test, maybe place a GPS collar on some. that would provide interesting data.

 

[Craves]

What’s the chance of the baiting ban being rescinded this year. I’m thinking it ll never be rescinded in our area but hey they got the science. Bunch of BS

If they were serious about baiting being a factor for CWD transmission they would just allow shell corn to be the only legal bait...put out 2 gallons and it is gone by morning.

What is happening now is a joke and virtually unenforceable. There is no legal way to stop the sale of the "vegetables" or the minerals and attractants sold in every sporting goods/hardware store. Besides every gas station or party store still selling bait, there sre still places selling beets by the scoop...those people aren't making their own sugar!

I prefer not using bait and won't go back, but what is happening now is ridiculous if bait is the boogeyman the DNR makes it out to be.

 

[DEDGOOSE]

If they were serious about baiting being a factor for CWD transmission they would just allow shell corn to be the only legal bait...put out 2 gallons and it is gone by morning.

What is happening now is a joke and virtually unenforceable. There is no legal way to stop the sale of the "vegetables" or the minerals and attractants sold in every sporting goods/hardware store. Besides every gas station or party store still selling bait, there sre still places selling beets by the scoop...those people aren't making their own sugar!

I prefer not using bait and won't go back, but what is happening now is ridiculous if bait is the boogeyman the DNR makes it out to be.

So if they allowed baiting, but only two gallons of shelled corn, the people that are buying scoops of beets and carrots would stop and abide by the two gallon shell corn rule....

That's like saying if they raised the speed limit to 60 the people that drive 70 would abide and drive the speed limit..

 

[Chessieman]

"What is happening now is a joke and virtually unenforceable. There is no legal way to stop the sale of the "vegetables" or the minerals and attractants sold in every sporting goods/hardware store. Besides every gas station or party store still selling bait, there sre still places selling beets by the scoop...those people aren't making their own sugar!"

As word spreads of the tickets and the huge fines there has been a drop in baiting.
I think the Bow hunting season there is a lot due to the leaf cover.
Take a look at our county Craves, how could we be in the top five kills for the beginning 5 weeks running then drop way back?

 

[7mmsendero]

I would just tell them no, there’s no reason at this time to suspect a disease issue. Back in the 90’s a TB positive deer was reported to have been taken on property I helped care take. When we made a complaint this was a trespass. We wanted answers about what was going on, and did not get anywhere. We suspected the DNR made a mistake of some kind and didn’t want to talk about it.

 

[Cork Dust]

Absolutely not! They allegedly found a CWD positive deer near me 5 years ago. They revoked the MAPR’s which we had enjoyed here for 18 years….they banned baiting (but almost never enforce the ban)….they issued free disease control permits (the first year) … and they have tested thousands of deer since with zero additional CWD positives.

How many times have they changed their CWD Response Plan to suit whatever whims they decide upon from time to time? No thanks - they are all done trying to manage deer on my property.

When you folks sit down around the stove and bitch about how BADLY CWD has been handled in Michigan or any other state, you should print and read the responses in this thread back to each other, over and over again. Absolutely amazing!

The CWD response plan has been sequentially modified by "input" from legislators and sportsman who labor continusly under the mistaken reality that the deer are their property , pressuring the MDNR to alter their approach. Yes, let's not lose a single deer, because they are my deer, to determine whether a disease that, once established on the landscape, not only remains imbedded like a never to become blood engorged tick, and continues to spread across that landscape. Hey, wait a minute, don't hunters kill select deer individually, understanding that the population will recover over time? Do Region 3 hunters and hunter co-ops not engage in multi-deo harvest?

In truth, the reality that no CWD positive animals have since been identified, provides you the confidence to both criticiize the validity of the actions taken and the outcome? AS time passes, the probability declines, but it does not reset to zero. You opted to leave out the CWD deer identified 13 miles into Wisconsin not long ago. Tempus fugit!

This is just sad... "They allegedly found a CWD positive deer"? Do you realize how much additonal effort and mmoney is expended AFTER a CWD positive animal is identified? Where does this money come from? Again, do you actually grasp the reality that wild game is the STATE's property, no matter whether they roam around on a remote forest property or on a parcel where farming deer is the approach to both concentrating them onto the parcel and increasing their numbers within the parcel. Where is Robin Hood when you really need him?

When a CWD positive animal is identifed, two things direct how many deer total should be sampled to determine incidence and how many deer per unit area should be contained within that sample. Why? Deer cluster by bands, they are not uniformly distributed on the landscape. The close contact among individuals is thought to influence disease spread rates over time. The folks involved in determining incidence in those animals out around Wacedah determined that they needed to shoot X number of deer per quarter section of land to effectively determine incidence within this herd segment accurately. This is why they didn't just grab a sample from just one parcel...tHEY DID NOT KNOW WHERE THE DISEASE WAS DISTRIBUTED OR CONCENTRATED, SINCE THEY HAD NO PREVIOUS NUMBERS OR INCIDENCE TO WORK OF OF.

Actually, the baiting ban was originally structured by legislative action was SUPPOSED to ban ALL baiting UP-wide when a CWD positive deer was discovered within X miles of the Wisconsin/U.P.of Michigan border. It was modified by legislative action again as the actual risk of CWD advanced through the southern tier counties of the State to only scribe a baiting ban around the area of incidence.

I had an interesting exchange with Stacy Hoooey-Welling at a UPHWG meeting after she engaged in a multi-minute whine session about how hard it was to get permission to access land or get landowners to kill deer for sampling. She got down-right nasty when ai asked her to walk-through her pitch, informing me that she didn not go door to door. "why, is this beneath your job description and station?" I was told that she would get me a batch of the permits and I could go camp to camp to attempt to get them used. Bill Scanlon stepped-in to interject that that would be illegal for a citizen to distribute them to landowners.

. .

 

[Craves]

@DEDGOOSE @Chessieman

My point is that IF baiting is the boogeyman that the DNR says it is and enforcement of the baiting ban is almost unenforceable, why not just make one type of bait that gets eaten quickly by everything in the woods the only legal bait? Yes CWD prions could still be on the ground where the deer ate, but it wouldn't be on the beets, carrots, apples, pumpkins, mineral sites, and attractant sites that can hold the prions and have multiple deer eat off of.

I would think that a hunter who baits would take the legal option over the illegal option and the state could still minimize the possible CWD transmission as well as continue to sell licenses to those that want to head "up north" for a few days of hunting, put out some bait, and see or possibly shoot a deer.

This is just my opinion and it will probably never come close to even being considered. I prefer not having ANY bait, but those bags & scoops still keep getting sold, and reports of people getting caught hunting over them are minimal.

 

[Wild Thing]

When you folks sit down around the stove and bitch about how BADLY CWD has been handled in Michigan or any other state, you should print and read the responses in this thread back to each other, over and over again. Absolutely amazing!

The CWD response plan has been sequentially modified by "input" from legislators and sportsman who labor continusly under the mistaken reality that the deer are their property , pressuring the MDNR to alter their approach. Yes, let's not lose a single deer, because they are my deer, to determine whether a disease that, once established on the landscape, not only remains imbedded like a never to become blood engorged tick, and continues to spread across that landscape. Hey, wait a minute, don't hunters kill select deer individually, understanding that the population will recover over time? Do Region 3 hunters and hunter co-ops not engage in multi-deo harvest?

In truth, the reality that no CWD positive animals have since been identified, provides you the confidence to both criticiize the validity of the actions taken and the outcome? AS time passes, the probability declines, but it does not reset to zero. You opted to leave out the CWD deer identified 13 miles into Wisconsin not long ago. Tempus fugit!

This is just sad... "They allegedly found a CWD positive deer"? Do you realize how much additonal effort and mmoney is expended AFTER a CWD positive animal is identified? Where does this money come from? Again, do you actually grasp the reality that wild game is the STATE's property, no matter whether they roam around on a remote forest property or on a parcel where farming deer is the approach to both concentrating them onto the parcel and increasing their numbers within the parcel. Where is Robin Hood when you really need him?

When a CWD positive animal is identifed, two things direct how many deer total should be sampled to determine incidence and how many deer per unit area should be contained within that sample. Why? Deer cluster by bands, they are not uniformly distributed on the landscape. The close contact among individuals is thought to influence disease spread rates over time. The folks involved in determining incidence in those animals out around Wacedah determined that they needed to shoot X number of deer per quarter section of land to effectively determine incidence within this herd segment accurately. This is why they didn't just grab a sample from just one parcel...tHEY DID NOT KNOW WHERE THE DISEASE WAS DISTRIBUTED OR CONCENTRATED, SINCE THEY HAD NO PREVIOUS NUMBERS OR INCIDENCE TO WORK OF OF.

Actually, the baiting ban was originally structured by legislative action was SUPPOSED to ban ALL baiting UP-wide when a CWD positive deer was discovered within X miles of the Wisconsin/U.P.of Michigan border. It was modified by legislative action again as the actual risk of CWD advanced through the southern tier counties of the State to only scribe a baiting ban around the area of incidence.

I had an interesting exchange with Stacy Hoooey-Welling at a UPHWG meeting after she engaged in a multi-minute whine session about how hard it was to get permission to access land or get landowners to kill deer for sampling. She got down-right nasty when ai asked her to walk-through her pitch, informing me that she didn not go door to door. "why, is this beneath your job description and station?" I was told that she would get me a batch of the permits and I could go camp to camp to attempt to get them used. Bill Scanlon stepped-in to interject that that would be illegal for a citizen to distribute them to landowners.

. .

Thank you for acknowledging that my assertions about modifying the CWD response plan were accurate. It is the MDNR Response Plan for sure. Whether it was modified via legislative action....sportsman input... or whatever, the fact remains that the plan has been modified by the DNR more than once yet baiting throughout the vast majority of the U.P. has never been banned. This doesn't bother me as much as the fact that when they did, in fact, ban baiting in the CWD Core area, they pretty much refused to enforce the ban so it is business as usual except for a very few law abiding sportsmen in the area. What good is a law if it isn't enforced?

"They allegedly found a CWD positive deer"? Yes - I said "Allegedly" because there are few if any residents of Dickinson County who actually believe that the CWD positive deer was actually a Dickinson County deer. If the deer had come from any other farm in the U.P. other than Senator McBroom's family farm perhaps we would have more confidence in the validity of the information. The fact remains that there have likely been more deer (particularly bucks) killed illegally on McBroom's farm than any other farm in the U.P. - maybe even more than any farm in the entire state.

Many, many complaints about the illegal killing of deer on this farm have been made for the past several decades, yet no enforcement action has ever been taken and crop damage permits continue to be given to them every year.

I never said the CWD testing wasn't expensive or necessary. Our problem with the testing is that the DNR has continually stonewalled us about the results of the testing. All we want to know is "Was this deer actually related to any other deer in Dickinson County?" They did the genetic profiling on the deer almost immediately, but several years later we have still not been informed of the relationship of that deer to other deer in the area. We have heard many excuses as to why they can't tell us...."We still have to catalog the results with other deer and this takes time"...."We are working from home now due to the pandemic.....".... "I lost my lab assistant due to budgetary restraints..." C'Mon Man! Just tell us the truth!!

Regarding our cooperation with the DNR I can tell you this. I was a very staunch supporter of the DNR for probably 50 years. I donated my time, talents and treasures many times over the years....participating in Wood Duck nesting success surveys, serving as an instructor in their Becoming an Outdoors Women classes, securing prizes to be distributed to participants of the voluntary U.P. Camp Survey program, providing well over 100 deer to them to check at DNR check stations or Field Offices, participated in spotlight surveys for 5 years, allowing them to trap and collar deer on my property for their Deer Movement Study, etc, etc. Unfortunately, due to their track record in this CWD fiasco, their lack of action on the illegal activities on the McBroom farm and their lack of enforcement action on their baiting ban, I no longer have any confidence in the DNR to manage either deer or deer hunters in this state. Consequently....there is no way in Hell they will ever get my permission kill deer on my property for testing or any other reason.

Not trying to get into a pissing match with you C D - I know you are very knowledgeable about these issues. Just trying to give you the viewpoints maybe from those on the other side of the fence.

 

[kappa8]

Let's hypothetically say a deer in your neighborhood tests positive for CWD or TB, it's an area where the disease hasn't been know to exist previously. The DNR or USDA contacts you and asks to set up feeders on your property where they will have sharpshooters collect more deer for additional sampling. What is your position?

NEVER let the government on your property. Ever.

That is all.

 

[grapestomper]

They are still holding Dickinson County hostage over a so called positive test on a member of the legislatures property.
I don't trust them for anything. Been several years now and still the same rules and no more positive tests.

 

[Cork Dust]

Thank you for acknowledging that my assertions about modifying the CWD response plan were accurate. It is the MDNR Response Plan for sure. Whether it was modified via legislative action....sportsman input... or whatever, the fact remains that the plan has been modified by the DNR more than once yet baiting throughout the vast majority of the U.P. has never been banned. This doesn't bother me as much as the fact that when they did, in fact, ban baiting in the CWD Core area, they pretty much refused to enforce the ban so it is business as usual except for a very few law abiding sportsmen in the area. What good is a law if it isn't enforced?

"They allegedly found a CWD positive deer"? Yes - I said "Allegedly" because there are few if any residents of Dickinson County who actually believe that the CWD positive deer was actually a Dickinson County deer. If the deer had come from any other farm in the U.P. other than Senator McBroom's family farm perhaps we would have more confidence in the validity of the information. The fact remains that there have likely been more deer (particularly bucks) killed illegally on McBroom's farm than any other farm in the U.P. - maybe even more than any farm in the entire state.

Many, many complaints about the illegal killing of deer on this farm have been made for the past several decades, yet no enforcement action has ever been taken and crop damage permits continue to be given to them every year.

I never said the CWD testing wasn't expensive or necessary. Our problem with the testing is that the DNR has continually stonewalled us about the results of the testing. All we want to know is "Was this deer actually related to any other deer in Dickinson County?" They did the genetic profiling on the deer almost immediately, but several years later we have still not been informed of the relationship of that deer to other deer in the area. We have heard many excuses as to why they can't tell us...."We still have to catalog the results with other deer and this takes time"...."We are working from home now due to the pandemic.....".... "I lost my lab assistant due to budgetary restraints..." C'Mon Man! Just tell us the truth!!

Regarding our cooperation with the DNR I can tell you this. I was a very staunch supporter of the DNR for probably 50 years. I donated my time, talents and treasures many times over the years....participating in Wood Duck nesting success surveys, serving as an instructor in their Becoming an Outdoors Women classes, securing prizes to be distributed to participants of the voluntary U.P. Camp Survey program, providing well over 100 deer to them to check at DNR check stations or Field Offices, participated in spotlight surveys for 5 years, allowing them to trap and collar deer on my property for their Deer Movement Study, etc, etc. Unfortunately, due to their track record in this CWD fiasco, their lack of action on the illegal activities on the McBroom farm and their lack of enforcement action on their baiting ban, I no longer have any confidence in the DNR to manage either deer or deer hunters in this state. Consequently....there is no way in Hell they will ever get my permission kill deer on my property for testing or any other reason.

Not trying to get into a pissing match with you C D - I know you are very knowledgeable about these issues. Just trying to give you the viewpoints maybe from those on the other side of the fence.

Which is more important for the resource, the forest or the trees? I suspect both, depending on the over-arching importance of the issue at stake.

Every time I get insulted, criticized, told my perspective is so much BS on this forum, I stop, pick my marbles ups and march away from the playground. As I walk away, I eventually start thinking about the larger issues at stake, the importance of preserving fish and game populations for the future, and why time is so fleeting in the moment, yet it is the passage of time that best illustrates history and guides future endeavors and approaches. Then, I wipe my nose and get back over to that marble game...

The NRC is an executive level board, placing them under direct control of the legislature and the governor. Does the DNR set policy? YUP, right up until it is altered,, frequently abandoned, and often mis-directed by the NRC. Stacy Haughy-Welling is supposed to function as a liaison between the department and Michigan government...I looked-up its definitions in several dictionaries and never found one that stated liaison was a synonym for director or manager, as well as any other position title that warranted or garanteed the conveyance of leadership. Oddly, my direct involvement with her clearly underscores who is driving the bus. Outside of some input from the vets at Rose Lake facility, the MDNR field staff and Steven T. Mason building administratiors below the head of the Widlife Divison at the time, and Russ Mason, along with those individuals Russ had hand-picked to

Did you notice I mentioned Ms. Hooey-Welling leading the conversation on HOW CWD testing was progressing? Stacy has a Public Policy and Affairs degree. She worked as an aide in Lansing. OH, and to validate her expertise in Wildlife management decision making, she had a relative who was in the UP, working as a CO. He was the only CO killed while on the job. I have never figured-out whether that event should gain empathy directed her way, or whether she offers it as some sort of validation. After viewing her in action, I can just postulate with some level of accuracy on why it occured. When we first met, we were exchanging pleasantries when I mentioned that I was involved in getting the warming hut built at Blueberry Ridge XC facility, outside Marquette. She said "her best friend in the whole world" is engaged to XYZ of the Noquemenon Ski Club board. I knew his first wife and why she left him... Snakes should always mate with snakes. Yes, I knew him and unfortunately knew his fiance far better: she was previously dating one of the guys I XC raced and trained with, as well as being a deer hunting partner and camp member for years. Jeri is a "gold digger par excellence". She worked him over quite thoroughly, prior dumping him for her now husband, who is more socially porminent and made more than Mike. Snakes oddly hibernate with other snakes! Stacey did everything she could after that exchange over CWD to get me barred from the UP HWG. you can go the the Mich.gov website and reac her UP HWG link updates and press releases and gain a better sense of what I am driving at. Can you explain why she would be leading the discussions for a joint effort by Federal, State, private corporate, and private forestland owners and managers who are involved in trying to indentify, restore, and stabilize Winter Deer use complexes? I sure can't. Could it be that the State had never thought of or attempted a multi-organization approach to attempt to achieve this. I sure did get the vibe that Russ Mason was not happy that this was an outside of his agency conceived and organizde consortium, largely why their efforts continue to be largely ignored and marginalized.

Terry Minsey was a product of the good ole boy system within the MDNR. I have known him for years, he is a decent guy and generally well meaning. This anecdote, during a UP HWG meeting i mentioned the two year bumper crop of oak mast's benefit to the deer herd's health. Terry cut me off to point-out that red oaks are only a little over 20% of the forest cover in the UP, so they contribute little to the total herd. I realized quite quickly that this was a put you in your place comment, made for the larger group. At the break, I turned to Bob Doepker who was sitting next to me and asked him to comment on their value, since they are key forage component in years of high production. Bob is a very good diplomat. He stated that, while not abundant, they play a keen role in prepping the herd for winter in years when their mast production is high. Is that not what I said? Well, yes, but Terry didn't hear that...

I know someone who might offer some clear back-story information on the deer reported from Ed McBroom's farmland. I suspect, since you read this forum, you know my high regard for Mr. McBroom, underscored in other posts. My suspicion is that someone lost the data. Widlife Division once hired a outside contractor to encode deer data. The result was three years of lost data. Gone, totally unable to be retrieved or re-entered. ON a side note all of our field data sheets that were just blow-ups of Fortan cards are still stored in a back room at Natural Resources on MSU's campus from the Ludington Pumped Storage Power Plant Study

 

[LabtechLewis]

"Snakes oddly hibernate with other snakes!"

Know your audience, man. Read the room.