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Discussion Starter #61
Well, that's every civilization isn't it?
No - in fact most civilizations are relatively consistent across geography at least.

The issue is that "Native American" wasn't one civilization - it was hundreds of different civilizations.


Ah, an air brushed version guy. Welcome to the conversation.
Seems more like he's pointing out that what is generally taught is an airbrushed version.
 

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Fell off my reading horse in 2020... a lot of what I picked up just didn't engage, but a couple of decent ones made the list. Otherwise i'm huge sci-fi/horror/fiction junkie. Keep that icky non-fiction way from me. I have enough of that in my real life. Kind of went on a post apocalypse binge after COVID lockdowns first hit.

  • Max Brooks - Devolution
  • The John Matherson Series: (One Second After, One Year After, The Final Day) by William Forster
  • Lucifers Hammer - Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
  • Earth Abides - George Stewart
  • Last Days - Brian Evenson (everyone should read this. Hugely dark and darkly comic.
  • Network Effect (Murderbot series) - Martha Wells
  • Children of Time / Children of Ruin - Adrian Tchaikovsky
  • Petras Ghost - C.S. O'Cinneide
  • The Sparrow Series - Mary Doria Russel
  • I also re-read: The Road and Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy
 

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No - in fact most civilizations are relatively consistent across geography at least.
I guess you have examples in mind of such civilizations? Lets limit it to ones that lasted 500 years and never expanded their possessions or influence.
 

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Discussion Starter #64
I guess you have examples in mind of such civilizations? Lets limit it to ones that lasted 500 years and never expanded their possessions or influence.
Well - your time limits largely put every native tribe in North America off the table. Very few of them even stayed in the same geography for that long.

...and "never expanded their possessions or influence"? Because the only way to expand possessions and influence is through war?

The more sedentary and agricultural a tribe, the less warlike in general (which follows the general violence trend worldwide of decreasing violence among agragrians vs. foragers) - so when you're looking for relatively "peaceful" tribes you're generally looking for agronomists, as opposed to hunter/gatherers like the Plains tribes.

For relatively non-warlike groups -

O’odham
Chinook
Arawak
Wiyot
 

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The Outrun, Amy Liptrot. Girl grows up in Scotland's Orkney Islands with a bipolar father and religious fundamentalist mother. Flees to London, goes nuts with drugs/sex/rock&roll, sobers up and returns to Orkney and tries to reassemble her life. Great nature/sociological observations, especially how the internet enhances and undermines interaction with nature (though m-s.com folks are already pretty aware of that, I'd guess). Orkney/Shetland sounds like someplace I need to go before I die. Pretty cheap property there too.
 

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Well - your time limits largely put every native tribe in North America off the table. Very few of them even stayed in the same geography for that long.

...and "never expanded their possessions or influence"? Because the only way to expand possessions and influence is through war?

The more sedentary and agricultural a tribe, the less warlike in general (which follows the general violence trend worldwide of decreasing violence among agragrians vs. foragers) - so when you're looking for relatively "peaceful" tribes you're generally looking for agronomists, as opposed to hunter/gatherers like the Plains tribes.

For relatively non-warlike groups -

O’odham
Chinook
Arawak
Wiyot
Well, you said that most civilizations were consistent across geography. I couldn't think of any which thrive that were. A point you highlighted nicely by the way.

Of the ones which did expand their domain. When they stopped doing that the end was on the way. To speak of the "Native" Americans. You would naturally think of the Iroquois. They were well into expanding their domain when the "European" entrepreneur's showed up. Who knows what would have happened when they encountered horses and the Sioux? War I imagine. So in the end, the only thing that really changed were the complexions of the Americans. Their behavior not so much.
 

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Discussion Starter #67
Well, you said that most civilizations were consistent across geography.
Consistent in the sense that similar geographies drive similar behavior patterns.

I couldn't think of any which thrive that were. A point you highlighted nicely by the way.
I have no idea what you are trying to communicate with that statement. I recognize the words, but have no idea what you mean.

To speak of the "Native" Americans. You would naturally think of the Iroquois.
No, I wouldn't. They probably come in #8 or so.

They were well into expanding their domain when the "European" entrepreneur's showed up.
Yes, the Iroquois were expansionist, although not especially warlike relatively.

...but then, I never said that no tribes were warlike. I said the image of all tribes as warlike was false.
 

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I'm just now starting Perfectly Wounded, A Memoir About What Happens After A Miracle by former U.S. Navy Seal Mike Day.
 

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I have no idea what you are trying to communicate with that statement. I recognize the words, but have no idea what you mean.
I mean that your examples highlight my point rather than your own.

No, I wouldn't. They probably come in #8 or so.
Well, they were the powerhouse of their region.

Yes, the Iroquois were expansionist, although not especially warlike relatively.
History disputes this. So, I have to wonder what you are referencing.

A movie perhaps?

...but then, I never said that no tribes were warlike. I said the image of all tribes as warlike was false.
It's pretty accurate.
 

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Discussion Starter #70
I mean that your examples highlight my point rather than your own.
My point was that some tribes were warlike, and some tribes were not. How do my examples of non-warlike tribes highlight your point that all tribes were warlike?

Well, they were the powerhouse of their region.
That is true, and has absolutely nothing to do with who I naturally think of when I think of Native American.

History disputes this.
No, the Iriquois - compared to the entirety of cultures in the world at the time - were not particularly warlike.

It's pretty accurate.
No, it isn't.
 

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I've been sticking to fiction lately. Try Wayne Stinnett for an author. Main character is a retired Marine sniper who moves to the Florida Keys. Next thing you know he's tied into Homeland Security and away we go. Ended up reading every book he wrote.

Since I have Amazon Prime I've been reading a lot of free kindle books. All fiction who-done-its.
 
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