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Originally posted by farmlegend 10-01-2003
... 3.5 year old, 130# dressed doe...

...These older does dominate the territory on my farm, driving out bucks, and it feels great to come out of the gate and take a solid step toward effective herd management.
Took my muzzleloader killed doe the the Bay City DNR office/check station today to have her aged. This is what the biologist said:

"WHOA-is she old.
Look at that.
She is at least 10.
You did good."


Now that is a matriarch doe. Also a great trophy for my first season hunting with a muzzleloader.

I will take the lower jaw bone to the January, Mid-Michigan branch meeting. I want to see if some the experts agree with the biologist.
 

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Bob,
That is one mature doe!! I would suspect past her ability to successfully carry fawns. Did ya give her a chance ta get ou

tta her wheel chair before ya shot??....LOL!.......Just teasing a bit!

Was she with other deer and if so, did she seem to be the lynchpin that held the group together?
 

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You got me beat, Bob. Congratulations. Just goes to show that even the wariest of matriarchs can occasionally be fooled by a well-presented pile of sugar beets. :D

Incidentally, Whit, it's my understanding that free-ranging, wild does remain productive for their entire lives. The idea of an "old, dry doe" is mostly a northwoods myth. The myth likely arose from an earlier era, when it was considered impolite (at best) to harvest a doe. Accidental shooting of a doe could be shrugged off, by rationalizing, "heck, she was a big old doe, and probably dry".
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
For starters, when I went out I didn`t carry any of my heavy clothes, I wore everything. So I was sweating pretty good.

I hadn`t seen anything, then about 9:10am 4 does/fawns came in from the neighbor`s property to the south. I wasn`t concerned about size. I was going to take a shot at the first deer to step into an opening in the trees, as long as it didn`t have buttons. They were moving behind several balsam fir and didn`t offer a shot. When they reached the trail that I had walked in on they must have still smelled they stinky hunter that walked through an hour and 40 minutes earlier. They just mulled around for about 5 minutes and would not cross my trail.

Then two of them started to meander my direction. I was just real lucky that this doe was the first one to step into an opening. Took the shot at about 35 yards. She ran broadside to me for about 35 yards and went down in an area of several dead falls. I could see the hole in her side from the 295 grain PowerBelt bullet as she ran. I assumed she was the dominate doe of the group as the other three ran over to where she fell and stood there for a minute or two before they ran off.

She field dressed at 100 lbs. She was not lactating, but this late in the season that may not mean anything. So I don`t know if both of the fawns were from one doe, or one from each.

The advanced age of the doe just makes it so much more exciting. As it wasn`t exciting enough getting a deer my first year muzzleloading.
 

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Great Job!

My oldest doe was taken last year, 7.5 yrs. She lived a great life, fat as a hog with 2 buttons tagging along. Head like a boat oar! Still proud of that deer, jaw bone hangs with pride, right next to all the others.

We have taken a total of 7 does this year, with the late season upon us I hope to make it an even 10.

No bucks taken, yet. :)
 

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We have taken 5 does off the property so far this year.

Of those five I happened to take the two oldest. One aged at 5.5 years and the other at age 7.5 to 8.5 years. When they get past 5.5 or so the biologists admit that field judging the age by looking at the teeth becomes questionable. The lab (cutting a cross section of a tooth) has much better success in getting the age correct.

In any case, when they get in bow range and their head looks like it belongs to a horse I try to do my part of the management program.

Ya, when the biologist say "this is an old one, a REAL OLD ONE," the meat grinder is the first thing that comes to mind.

Back-straps and burger----yum yum.....tm
 

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You guys are better hunters than me. My oldest doe ever was 4.5 years of age. The older ones have a knack for giving me the slip just before I can execute a succesful draw.

We've taken 6 does so far this year. One 3.5, two 2.5, two 1.5, and one 0.5.

I hope to hit it pretty hard in the final week. Great feeling to 2x lung one with snow on the ground just as the season expires.
 

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Originally posted by farmlegend
Great feeling to 2x lung one with snow on the ground just as the season expires.
That reminds me of a doe I took several years ago in December. She was a martriarch and very large, however I didn't have her aged.

I was hunting of M22 north of Onekama at the top of the hill that rises from Portage Lake. It is quite a hill. I shot, the deer took off going west. Knowing the shot was solid, I took up the tracks after only a few minutes. In the foot deep snow Blind Franky could have followed the trail. In about 100 yds. I could look ahead and saw the tracks angled toward the edge of a steep drop that decscended towards the lake.

"Oh no!", I thought, "she's dropped over the lip and went to the bottom of the steep, long slope."

Sure enough when I looked over the edge of the hill there lay the doe at the bottom. She dropped about a 1/3 of the way down and slide the rest of way, coming to stop about 50 yds. below where I stood.

I knew the lay of the land, however, and was able to hike back to my truck, and with 4 wheel drive on a known 2-track road, got to within 200 yds of where she lay, and, importantly, on the same level so I didn't have to drag her up those slippery slopes. I saved about a 1/2 drag through the woods back to the highway.

The hit was a double lung penetration, but she still went over 100 yds. before expiring and sliding down that hill.
 

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I'd rather be lucky than good any day Farmlegend:D

I've been seeing a good number of deer during the last half hour of legal light. I've only one tag left and don't want to end the years hunting just yet.

Now if I'm realy lucky, maybe on the 1st of January.....................................
 

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Good story, Whit. Since it's Christmas, I'll share my favorite late season story. I apologize for its length. A really beautiful hunt, with a somewhat ugly twist, and a happy ending.

Remember December of 2000? In my area, we had multiple blizzards, snow was knee deep, temps were low. Roads went unplowed for considerable periods. I was finally able to get out on the 31st, with my Jeep loaded down with gear and shovels. My farm is accessed from a seasonal road which is never plowed in the winter. It took some doing to drive down to where I parked, which was right on the road. No matter, no other vehicles used the road that afternoon or evening.

I chose the only stand practical to hunt that day; only about 200 yards in from the road, in a big, forked Black Walnut, located within a brushy fencerow, near the NW corner of a 17 acre plot of still-standing corn (an aside - the stand was nicknamed "Ray Bolger", that's right, for the scarecrow) . The corn had been well-battered by weather and deer, and any critters travelling through the corn (which included a tough covey of quail that year) were well-visible from my stand.

I settled into the treestand for the afternoon vigil. Temp was about 18F, which was warmer than it had recently been, and there was a light NW wind. The sky was perfectly clear. I have never seen a bluer sky in Michigan than we had on that day; almost a deep, azure blue, like you sometimes get in the mountains out west. The contrast between the blue, blue sky and the white, white snow made for the most strikingly beautiful hunt that I can remember. As I faced mostly east with the sun at my back, the landscape before me was amazingly picturesque and the memory of it is vivid to this day. From my perch, I could see the rolling CRP fields, the hills, swales, and woodlots, as well as the distant stand of mature Norway Spruce way over at my now-inaccessable campsite. I wished that everyone I knew could be up here in my tree with me to see this sight!

Soon, the deer appeared. Against the snowy background, they were hard to miss. Most were far off, some moving along distant hillsides, all getting an early start at heading to their chosen feeding locations. The exception was a surviving 1.5 year old buck, which materialized in the corn. The deer were mostly in groups of 2-4, and appeared with regularity as the hunt proceeded. All in all, I must have seen at least 20 of them, which is a pretty big number to me.

With a good 30 minutes of light remaining, a group of 4 antlerless deer moved out of a swamp to my northwest and headed across a CRP field in my general direction. The first deer into the thin corn was a doe fawn, which I decided to take. She paused within range, I drew my bow, but she suddenly pranced into the corn before I could release. Next a button buck wandered by, followed by a young doe which circled out of range. Finally, a 2.5 year old doe gingerly stepped into the corn, took a few steps, and came to a stop, 20 yards out, and looking away from me. I drew, and was careful to take my time to close the deal on this "tap-in" shot. I carefully and deliberately picked a spot, anchored, and, waited a split second too long; just as the arrow was released, the doe suddenly lunged forward. I had hit just a smidge too far back! She slowly walked into the corn, and I could see blood dripping from the entrance wound. I could also see the nock of my bloody arrow sticking out of the snow, where it had cleanly passed through her. Not good.

I fished out another arrow, and launched the lowest-percentage shot of my life, at this wounded deer, now perhaps 40 yards distant, walking through the corn. I wasn't sure if I connected, but the shot did cause her to change direction, and she began to walk straight north. She afforded me another walking shot, this time at something over 30 yards. Upon impact, she seemed to hesitate, but continued walking. I was down to my last arrow, and she now came to a stop along the northern edge of the corn, again close to 40 yards away. This time, immediately after the arrow passed through her, she fell over, briefly twitched, and died. My goodness, what a relief. For the first time in my hunting career, I lowered my bow to the ground with an empty quiver, then returned to my Jeep to get my utility sled to facilitate dragging her to the road.

As I dressed her at roadside with my lantern ablaze, I contemplated the solitude of the whole hunt experience - I doubt if any hunters at all were afield in my vicinity that day, and I never heard a hint of vehicular traffic. Though I was in southern Michigan farm country, it was as if there was no human presence at all save for my own.

When the autopsy was complete, I found that I had hit her with all four arrows; the first, just barely behind the diaphragm; the 2nd, the worst, a paunch hit; the 3rd double lunged her, and she likely would have fallen over quickly making the 4th (which got the heart) unnecessary.

A very memorable day for me.

Merry Christmas to my MSF friends.


:D
 

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FL,
Great story my friend. Worthy of publishing!
 

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There use to be a matriarch doe on my parents property in Livingston County. We called her "Big Foot". She had a very distinct foot print, her right rear hoof was a split toe, and they were very large. For a few years we just assumed that they were from a very big buck, until she came out under my tree stand one afternoon and I was able to identify her track. I learned a lot from her. She would bust me everytime I would see her. She usually had at least two fawns with her, and one years she had four. I think she adopted two from her previouse offspring that was hit by a car. One year she set up her fawn nursery right under one of my tree stands. I would get on stand about 3:30 pm. and by 3:45 I would spot her and her fawns coming in. The fawns would bed down right under me and she would wander around just out of bow range. Not that I would of shot her, she was too interesting and she was a good teacher. She would kick older fawns off the bait so the younger ones could eat. One time I saw her box (get up on her back legs and punch with her front hoofs) a young buck off the bait. She must have been at least nine years old. Then one year she wasn't around any more. We figured that she either got hit by a car or died of natural causes because she was too smart to get shot. It just hasn't been the same with out her. The deer just haven't been as abundant since she has been gone. She was truely a martiarch.
 

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RH,
That's a great story. Thanks for sharing it with us.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Originally posted by Grouse Hunter
Bob,...
Was there evidence of your deer lactating?
No, she was not lactating. As late into the season as it was, December 21, I don`t know if that was of significance. She was with another doe and two fawns. I believe I had seen those four deer on two other occasions from that same stand. The first time on October 1, and again towards the end of October. Don`t have the exact date since my records are up at camp. I don`t know if one fawn was from each doe or both of the fawns were from just one of the does.

I am going to take the jaw bone to the January 10, QDMA meeting at Jay`s. I want to see if some of the more experienced deer agers agree with the DNR biologist.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Update to my story, 10 1/2 years confirmed.

I took the jawbone from my old doe to the QDMA Mid-Michigan branch meeting yesterday. Ed Spinazzola said he believed she was 10 1/2. Most of the guys that had an opinion also said 10 1/2. A couple guys said 8 1/2-10 1/2. One even said 11 1/2.

Richard King had a jawbone from one of his does this past season that he aged at 10 1/2. It looked like it could have been a twin of mine.

So I will put 10 1/2 into my records. This was a fantastic deer season.
 
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