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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is quoted from Dr. Alt, which I'm sure, some have read and some haven't so I'll post this,

"The reality is that our forests and woodlands are melting before our eyes because hunters, historically, have not controlled deer numbers," said Alt. Now those overpopulated herds are threatening the health of our ecosystems."

That was from the latest issue of "American Hunter", from what I interpreted from the article was that, Alt, designed this program, for the habitat and the larger antlered deer, were merely a "by product" of managing the herd, which is nice.
It appeared that PA had a problem with too many deer, and thats where this plan came from.( thats what I took from the article, anyway).

My point is this,,,, if you want to "recruit" new QDM'ers, start with the "habitat issue" NOT the "I want trophy deer issue".

I believe hunters would be ALOT more, receptive to QDM, if it weren't "pushed" as, BRM ( big rack managament)

Make hunters believe that they are doing something for the habitat, rather than the deer. I think everyone would "fall in line" pretty quick.
 

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Here is a quote from Dr. Alt that appeared in Deer and Deer Hunting magazine last year.

"Forests have been browsed into oblivion, yet hunters think it is normal to be able to see 200 yards in a woods. It`s not. Eventually, deer consume all the edible food, and the deer herds crash."

Dr. Gary Alt
Pennsylvania Game Commission

That said, many of those that oppose QDM aren`t any more interested in the habitat as they are the welfare of the deer herd.
 

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Originally posted by William H Bonney
My point is this,,,, if you want to "recruit" new QDM'ers, start with the "habitat issue" NOT the "I want trophy deer issue".
How many QDMers on this board are saying "I want trophy deer"? It seems more like the anti-QDMers are the ones saying, "all you guys want is trophy deer".
 

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William B.
My point is this,,,, if you want to "recruit" new QDM'ers, start with the "habitat issue" NOT the "I want trophy deer issue
I guess though it depends where you are? In my area we do not have a problem with over browsing (yet) the deer population is around the wdnr's target or a little above, now if we can get the doe/buck numbers closer to even we would be acomplishing a great feat.
With out sounding anti envirenment, the motive for me to start a program was to get larger (older) bucks. I hope that is not wrong? But everyday that I come here, it seems I learn anouther angle into QDM and the reasons for it! Posts like yours Bill are great information and in many cases you are probably right. If you start with the over browsing and continue into the buck/doe rates (and the reasons for it) and end up with what the bi-product will be (older/larger/more) bucks it is very convincing considering any way you look at it, it is a win win unless all someone cares about is how many deer they put down.
Next year I am estimating that every one in my group will be able to harvest a buck and a doe. Considering we never fill up on bucks (yet). It will be a sweet suprise to my group when I announce at this springs first work weekend that we now can shoot doe's. The number of deer (since we put in a food plot and am putting in 2 more this spring) have increased enough to support this along with my Late Dec. counts of deer in my neck of the woods. I feel we can take 2 doe's for every buck next year and if we go over a bit on the doe's it wont hurt. I attribute all of this to the programs we put in place 6 years or so ago.
Keep all the good info coming, I am sucking in all the information!!!!!
 

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Really, the only people I ever hear pushing QDM as a "I want a trophy deer issue", are those that are against QDM. Consider the source.

Again, the founding biological basis for QDM, started by Al Brothers around 30 years ago is:

1. Adequate buck age structure...usually achieved by yearling buck protection.

2. Populations maintaned at or below the carrying capacity of the land....usually achieved with adequate doe harvest, and/or habitat imrovement.

3. Adequate sex ratios...not necessarily 1:1, and usually achieved with protection of yearling bucks and adequate doe harvest.

That's it, that's the biological aspects of QDM, or "Herd Management"

Then you have "Hunter Management":

Education, cooperation with local wildlife officials, respect for local game laws, habitat improvement, youth involvement, etc.
 

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From www.qdma.com

What is Quality Deer Management?

Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints. This approach typically involves the protection of young bucks (yearlings and some 2.5 year-olds) combined with an adequate harvest of female deer to maintain a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions and landowner desires. This level of deer management involves the production of quality deer (bucks, does, and fawns), quality habitat, quality hunting experiences, and, most importantly, quality hunters.


From the last sentence:
1...production of quality deer (bucks, does, fawns)
2...quality habitat
3...quality hunting experiences
4...quality hunters

My personal beliefs remain the same, build the habitat first and items #1 and #3 will follow.
 

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The way I see it for MI…

Problem is, many scoff at the idea that the habitat is poor in areas (despite obvious browse lines and poor browse or understory in areas)

Problem is, many scoff at the concept that deer densities are too high for the available habitat in areas (despite obvious browse lines, lack of understory, and does being bred well into January by the few bucks out there)

Problem is that many equate high numbers of deer to healthy deer (despite obvious browse lines, lack of understory, does being bred well into January, skewed sex ratios, small antlered bucks and low body weights).

Fact is QDM promotes Herd Management, Habitat Management and Hunter Management, etc to address the above issues.

Problem is many fail to look past the fact that “antlers” are somehow the only part / measure of the success of a QDM program.

From my view, most of the “pro” on this forum promote habitat and herd management first and have not emphasized big racks, only antler restrictions as an easy means to accomplish a better age structure in the short term. Doe harvest is also contentious at times.

Sure, conditions vary by area, but I fail to see how some can oppose a proposal that calls for harvest in balance with the habitat, be it buck or doe.

I’m trying to do my part. IF I can add a few pounds to the average doe through HABITAT and HERD management accomplished in part through HUNTER management (which comes from EDUCATION), then I think I’m doing a good job.

Maybe I'll take a nice, mature buck too someday!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
All the "debates" that I've seen on this website, surrounding QDM, seem to revolve around "antlers" and "age" of deer. Why not turn the "idea" to habitat, rather than antler restrictions and age??
Do you see where I'm going with this???:confused:

All "anti-QDM'ers" hear is the word "restrictions, restrictions,restrictions,,,,, could ya think of a more negative word to use??? << sarcasm

Thats part of the reason for all the "opposition" to QDM.

It should be called QHMD, Quality Habitat Management for Deer!

Wouldn't it be nice to hear hunters saying,,, "geez,, I can't believe the number of big bucks I'm seeing, since this "habitat program" went into effect"

Was I wrong in what I interpreted from Dr. Alt's idea??
 

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How about restraint, restraint, restraint?

Voluntary is good right?

In a perfect world, one that involves trusting your neighbor.

But unfortunately we don't, so the "If I don't shoot him somebody else will" attitude will remain.

Precisely why PA went to mandatory antler restricitons, in order for their program to be successful.
 

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Maybe we can change it to; Quality Everything About Deer and Hunter and Habitat Management Excluding Anything About Antler Restrictions As A Management Tool, or (QEADHHMEAAARAAMT) for short?

Na....QDM is so much easier.:)
 

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Originally posted by Bob S
How many QDMers on this board are saying "I want trophy deer"? It seems more like the anti-QDMers are the ones saying, "all you guys want is trophy deer".

True I don't hear a lot of I want trophy deer. I hear don't shoot little bucks, And comments about how many 1 1/2 year old bucks are in the gallery.
 

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Originally posted by hypox
And comments about how many 1 1/2 year old bucks are in the gallery.
Where have you ever seen this in the QDM forum?
 

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Habitat doesn't balance the buck to doe ratio.

Deer Management: Taking the Next Step Forward

From 2000:

Deer guru wants increased harvest numbers

"To suggest that antler restrictions are just about 'trophy hunting,' is unfair and less than accurate. In fact, the issue is much more important than that. By increasing the number and the age of bucks in the deer population, a much more natural breeding ecology than we have ever seen in our entire lives would be established; one where dominate bucks compete for breeding rites rather than any buck, regardless of age, being able to breed.", Gary Alt

PA's deer management program is QDM.
 

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Quality Deer Management, is not trophy hunting.

"In many cases, trophy hunting pays little attention to the habitat and the overall composition of the deer herd. Quality deer hunting is more comprehensive. It addresses both habitat creation and harvest management. Many trophy hunters set out to harvest the biggest buck they can with little regard for carrying capacities or adult doe to antlered buck ratios. QDM emphasizes the development of mature bucks, as well as habitat creation and balanced sex ratios."

Charles Alsheimer
 

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Bob S, in answer to your question:

Originally posted by farmlegend
I tend to run hot and cold on the idea of a one buck limit (all weapons, one antlered buck per hunter per season).

No doubt in my mind that we hugely overharvest juvenile (1.5 year old) bucks in Michigan, and that performance is at the core of most of our deer management woes. No mystery here, they're practically the easiest deer in the herd to kill, and we pass out two tags at the counter to anyone who forks over a modest fee.

I tend to favor a one buck limit more strongly at precisely this time of year. Why? Probably 90+% of bowhunters take out the first imbecile yearling buck that stumbles by their stand, comfortable in the knowledge that they've still got an extra tag in their pocket for later on. Now, they've "got their buck", and they can relax, and focus their energies on taking another one later, perhaps during the firearms season.

Don't believe it? Visit any high-volume deer processor, and you'll likely see mostly yearling bucks being brought in in early October. Or, for that matter, click on over to our Whitetail Deer Hunting forum, and read the stories, look at the pictures of deer that have been taken here in the first half of October. Out of the dozens of bucks described and shown, every single one I've seen has been a juvenile. Those immature bucks are so doggone vulnerable this time of year, they almost ought to be protected until November.

With a one buck limit, lots of guys would have to think twice before burning their precious buck tag on Sparky the Wonderbuck. And, the real world of hunting being what it is, often times a second chance at a buck will not materialize that season, and one more buck may survive to adulthood.

I'd even like to "supercharge" a one buck limit, by having hunters specify the DMU that their buck tag is valid in at the point of purchase. I see multiple benefits from that sort of policy.

Don't like a one buck limit? I can respect that.

Don't like antler restrictions? A rational case can be made supporting your point.

What I have a real problem with is the attitude that the status quo is fine, I want my two buck tags, and if someone is going to exercise restraint in whacking baby bucks, it's gonna have to be the other guy, not me.
It is on the thread "one buck limit"
 

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I figured that was coming!:D

Freepop, I appreciate your presenting my quote in its unedited entirety. Some guys can't resist the temptation to selectively edit quotes so as to skew the author's intended message.

Good links, SG.
 

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Yes, I didn't what to change the meaning. I'm not picking on you Farm. I respect alot of what you do and think, but not all of it. From personal experience, I know how much work goes in to just a fraction of what you do.

By the way, I still owe you that beverage :)
 

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Quote by William H Bonney
Wouldn't it be nice to hear hunters saying,,, "geez,, I can't believe the number of big bucks I'm seeing, since this "habitat program" went into effect"

I'm not perfect but I would rather show fellow sportsman it works and not tell them what they must do with their tags or land. Hunters and land owners are given the right to do as they see fit within the confines of the law. They've earned the right because they've earned the money to purchase both.

Visit my gallery and see some results of what habitat improvement and restraint can do. All these deer were taken by two hunters who believe QDM works where ever it's given a fair chance.

Thank You Ed S and Charles A for sharing your wisdom.

America is about free choice and I believe I'll choose QDM.
 

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Luv2hunt, are those deer in your gallery Camp deer? Those are some nice bucks over the years, and I love the deer blind up about 20 feet!!

As for QDM.................................IT WORKS!!!!

PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!! And if it means that I WANT big bucks, darn skippy, because I dont want to shoot small little bucks. I already have a pile of them and I dont need to shoot a 1 1/2 old buck for meat. PLENTY of does to go around in my neck of the woods.
 

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Originally posted by mich buckmaster
And if it means that I WANT big bucks, darn skippy, because I dont want to shoot small little bucks. I already have a pile of them and I dont need to shoot a 1 1/2 old buck for meat.
Buckmaster,
EXACTLY! You have every right to make that decision. BUT.....don't force others to do what you choose to....that's where the rub is. Forcing others to agree with your point of view is where this thing is breaking down.
 
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