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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My dad can now be allowed to continue his love of hunting and enjoying the autom woods. He will be allowed to use a weapon of choice on October 1 2008.

On Monday September 15, 2008 on behalf of my father I called Lansing and filled an age discrimination complaint againt the DNR for my 81 year old father. I felt we had no other choice if he wanted to continue hunting.

The problem was in the wording/requirements on the application. He had to be labled as "Permenatly Disabled". Age and weakness is not considerd by the Social Security Admin, AARP, or the medical field as a disability. Therefor we had a hard time finding a Doctor who would sign this.

So I made the complaint and placed calls to AARP, ATA, NRA, Senators and Reps, and a few other places asking for help if we needed it. I figured we had a decent cause and I did not want to screw it up. I'm not a lawyer or a lobbiest.

The DNR Was great to work with and I spent a lot of time on the phone with many people. After a couple calls with my dad sitting at the Kitchen table he said he was gald I was doing this and talking with these people because he would ahve lost his temper and started yelling. NOT a good way to handle things.

Well here it is Thursday morning and I already recieved a great soution for him and what will be the start for many other Elderly Michigan Bowhunters. I was assured this will be covered at the very next NRC meeting in October and a better solution will be available to Michigan Elderly Bow Hunters.

My dad will now qualify for this permit without as will others of being disabled. He may be labeled as Old but we can accept that and so will the Doctors and the DNR.

He will have his permit before October 1, 2008. We may even address the NRC comission and the selected/appointed (not sure how they do this) committe.

I would like to again thank the whole DNR division for the great help and understanding we recieved from them. I would like to thank the Bowhunting Preservation group from the ATA.I would also like to thank Rebecca Humphries, I never got to speak with her but I know she was behind the scenes working for us.

I would also like to thank the people on this web site who supported us. A special thanks goes out to the MBH. Without their Strong stand on crossbows and without the sarcastic comments and accuazation from some of their members and spokesmen on this site I woudl not made this complaint. I would have sat back and waited.

Again I was assured people like my father will not be left out now or in the future.

Now we have to go shopping. anyone got ......OK thats another thread but I can search that:)

Thanks for all the support and for the lack of it. It all made a differance.

On behalf of my father and I both!

Skinner
 

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That is some great news Skinner. I can only hope that someday I'll have someone fighting as hard for me as you did for your dad. I'm aware of all the work you had to go through and anyone that benefits from your work has you to thank. Well done.;)

Welcome back Pops Skinner!!;)
 

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We are having problems as well with getting my grandfathers papers through. It was hard just to convince him to fill them out in the first place, but after being denied he has really lost ambition towards it. I wish i could get him back in the woods during October......:(
 

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Daniel. This opened my eyes for sure. Because of my father and this whole Issue I ahve been for the full inclusion. I jsut got tired of hearing lazy way out, slobs and every other comment I felt was level against an 81 year old guy just wanting to hunt. I think my Senator and Rep have heard enough from me in the last four days. They very well know my feelings. Time for some back up guys. place your calls I'm sure calls are already being placed against you. KEEP THE DOOR OPEN.

It is unreal how I feel. I have not even seen my dad yet but talked with him on the phone. He is already calling about CROSSBOWS. Like a kid on Christmas Eve. He has never even shot one before.

GUYS the DNR does listen. and I guess there in some truth that if you don't try then nothing will happen! Let the NRC know how you feel. Others are tell them how you feel trust me!

OK heck with this I'm going to go have abeer with my dad!

King Quack he already has.

Skinner
 

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This is very good news. Congrats on taking on the man and winning!!

I look at this as a win win...as you got the one aspect of the crossbow permit law that was the major argument FOR full inclusion. A month ago the requirements for disabled people to get a permit were lowered, and now those who are literally physically UNABLE to draw a bow in an ethical manner will be able to use a crossbow.

The win win, is that now this will really be a punch in the gut to those looking for full inclusion as their main argument for has just been taken off the table.:lol:
 

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This is very good news. Congrats on taking on the man and winning!!

I look at this as a win win...as you got the one aspect of the crossbow permit law that was the major argument FOR full inclusion. A month ago the requirements for disabled people to get a permit were lowered, and now those who are literally physically UNABLE to draw a bow in an ethical manner will be able to use a crossbow.

The win win, is that now this will really be a punch in the gut to those looking for full inclusion as their main argument for has just been taken off the table.:lol:
It certainly looks that way. :)

Congrats to your dad Skinner. Glad he's back. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
We (wife , son and I) just got home from visiting my father. He is pretty excited and looking forward. Surprised a agreeable solution for him came so quickly. I admire The DNR for this and feel they did what they felt was right getting him back out.

Should he had fallen through the system like this no. It's too bad we felt we had to do this because the DNR has other big issues at hand. They did this in troubled times to get one man back in the woods where he belongs while knowing their work load would/could increase drastically. I, we, they have no idea how many others are out there.

The next meeting is October 9th and hopefully this "Ancient Archer" (OK another name for my dad. A close friend called him the Ancient One a few years back and it stuck) problem will be able to rest. I had mixed feelings on posting this so fast because the DNR was so helpful. I knew if I did then they may or may not get flooded with calls and perhaps this would slow down/clog the system before the next NRC meeting. I truly wish them well.

On the other hand I knew for a fact others are out there. They should be allowed to get back out ASAP too. Too bad we waited so long because now even more pressure with be put on them because October is so close. So I guess people will now have to decide to hurry or relax a bit and perhaps prepare while NRC finishes this. I know they will be working as fast as they can. My hope is I didn't delay this because of a flood of calls and more work. I'm praying for both sides.

Tonight sitting on my dad's porch he was talking about stands, what where. and speciffically asked about my 20 ladder stand. I decided earlier I was not using it for archery but set it up in another location for Firearm Season. My portable stands have a bigger base and I don't sit down while bowhunting. I told him I was leaving it behind this weekend while we take my son out for this early hunt. Not that my son will shoot (too young) but sit with me. My dad didn't come out and ask but I could tell he has spot he would like to place it. This is the first time this year he spoke about where HE would like a stand...OK Number one job this weekend. Beside the stand is better suited for him anyway as his legs tire from standing and his back will get sore after short time. He sits a lot while bowhunting.

GVDoc. Well thanks but this is one tiny little speck of a battle. It time hunters, fisherman...... quit fighting so much with each other and start to work together. The biggest threat to all old, young, strong, weak, is the loss of hunting fishing, shooting.......all together. That should be everyones main concern. Would be nice if when my son is old and decides to use a cross bow as his choice then to look at his son and tell him You know your grandpa and great grandpa help be here today. This is far better the my greatgrand kids asking my son " Dad why did grandpa and great grandpa do this and what is hunting or a crossbow.....You mean people hunted and ate animals......

Skinner
 

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Sounds good, congrats.. hope you both enjoy your season. Wish i could get my ole man out there. Bad shoulder, but wont get a permit.
 

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I guess I'm a little confused, am I the MBH rep your referring too? The same rep that put you in touch with Mike.

I'm a little confused too and since you asked here I will answer here.

Simple one first. Yes your the rep that gave me Mike name and number. I thank you again for this and thanked you when you did it. Mike provided some good information about the items he used and offered his Doctors name if we needed it after Tuesday ( my dad's next Doctor beg visit) You had no trouble and were fast in helping me once I asked you directly for it. Glad I asked and glad that you did help. Big thanks to Mike also.

Not so simple. Yes. some you your comments rubbed me the wrong way very quickly( NO I don't recall exact nor will I go back and look, I'm moving on) I felt questions were asked of you on other posts and you made mockeries out of them. Issues skirted, generalizing people because they want to use a crossbow. You’re a Rep for the MBH. This carries a responsibility I feel you didn't live up too. Example. When I was begging for help looking for a Doctor, Did you as Rep offer to help? Another MS member did. He even asked on his own and let me know what they new. You did this only after I asked you directly on a public forum.

Terry I notice you were fast responding on other crossbow threads and many got closed. Some got way off topic. Oddly when I posted the ethics vs common sense question you never chimed in 4 pages worth right now and not one comment. Never offerd and help, never tried to make anything clear for me. Oddly the MBH had worked on the very thing I was complaining about. Not one comment coming from any MBH Rep. Guess you didn’t see that one.

When I posted the Help Needed Thread I was looking for you. Here was a cut and paste from the MBH website. I asked a direct plea for help to clarify. Some others offered suggestions. You didn't, MBH never did either. Posted under the crossbow heading too and a place where I noticed you visit allot. Matter of fact I'm still searching for the program in button 8 (For those who are physically unable to use conventional archery equipment, Michigan has a system in place that provides both crossbow and modified bow options).
Since you or MBH never answered it I have to assume the program for the weak is one of two things. I'll offer my answer since no one else did. The program must be the Disability one my dad was NOT able to get. Or was this program that is referred too called Firearm Seasons. Hopefully this was not the suggested program since it was a wrong season. Don't bother to answer now. Doesn't really matter to me... but maybe to others.

Since you're a Rep for the MBH perhaps you could have chimed in a second time since I again asked for it. I sent a e-mail to the MBH contact us link. Took a day or so but I got a reply from....(name doesn't matter here) Um official. He told me the two bullets in question were about the new permit criteria that MBH had so much to do with AND at MBH"s request. Oddly he never answered my question either. He said it was a program for the(physically unable to use conventional archery equipment, Michigan has a system in place) Today I received (to my second response and told him my dad was old and weak and fallen through the cracks) more. It was a better break down the permit requirements (I think ). 5.95 Permit to take game with a crossbow First line PERMANATE DISABLED) from there it defines the disabilities....Didn't see age or weakness listed. But he was helpful telling me how wheels vs cams work. And also about a 100 year old man shooting a league with a 28 pound bow with his fingers (His Choice, shot fingers all his life). His choice WOW 100 and had a choice. Odd that was added.[/COLOR]

He said he hopes the revised definitions help as they were designed too. They did, I learned more about PERMANATE DISABILITES. Did MBH offer to help my dad? NOPE .Offer a name or number for me to call. NOPE Offer a lobby group to help? Nope. Oddly though none of the other lobby groups, or people I spoke with offered the MBH name or number to call either.

Terry here was two distinct cries for help where the MBH (who were so helpful in designing this system) had a chance to help out 1 old man. In defense though I didn't directly ASK the MBH either in the e-mails.

I won't get into what I was told during all my phone calls after this complaint was filed. Since I was told it is only hear say anyway. BUT I got e-mails and so does MBH, Ask them to review them!!

Terry answer these two questions with an honest yes or no.

Was a prevision, statement or listed age for Seniors or Elderly on the list of criteria at any one time?

Yes or no?

If said prevision, statement, or listed age for Seniors or Elderly on the list of criteria was removed. Did the MBH try to get it and keep it reapplied?

Yes or no?

Skinner
 

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First of all allow me to say how happy I am to hear your Dad was able to get a permit. Secondly I was more than willing and glad I could help you and thanks for acknowledging that.

Allow me to address some of the issues you have raised.

Simple one first. Yes your the rep that gave me Mike name and number. I thank you again for this and thanked you when you did it. Mike provided some good information about the items he used and offered his Doctors name if we needed it after Tuesday ( my dad's next Doctor beg visit) You had no trouble and were fast in helping me once I asked you directly for it. Glad I asked and glad that you did help. Big thanks to Mike also.

When you asked me about having a friend that has a modified bow permit and could/would he helped you, I immediately PM and gave you Mike Shepards' cell phone number. That was prior to me calling him and aasking for his permission to do so. Because I've known Mike for a long time and knew that he wouldn't hesitate to help you and wouldn't mind doing so. After PMing you I called Mike and said "hey some guy from a internet forum is going to be calling you in regards to getting a modified bow permot for his dad." Mike said "whats his name and obviously I said I don't know but help him out.

Mike is a MBH member by the way.


Not so simple. Yes. some you your comments rubbed me the wrong way very quickly( NO I don't recall exact nor will I go back and look, I'm moving on) I felt questions were asked of you on other posts and you made mockeries out of them. Issues skirted, generalizing people because they want to use a crossbow. You’re a Rep for the MBH. This carries a responsibility I feel you didn't live up too. Example. When I was begging for help looking for a Doctor, Did you as Rep offer to help? Another MS member did. He even asked on his own and let me know what they new. You did this only after I asked you directly on a public forum.

I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner to your request for help. But allow me to say I really didn't think I could help you as most of the doctors I know are in Ohio where I reside.If the other MS member you are reffering to is Soggy, he is a MBH member as well. Again I sorry I didn't immediately respond to your call for help as I felt that most likely there were many more qualified people within the state that could refer you to a local doctor. But again in my defense once you asked me I didn't hesitate to become involved.

When I posted the Help Needed Thread I was looking for you. Here was a cut and paste from the MBH website. I asked a direct plea for help to clarify. Some others offered suggestions. You didn't, MBH never did either. Posted under the crossbow heading too and a place where I noticed you visit allot. Matter of fact I'm still searching for the program in button 8 (For those who are physically unable to use conventional archery equipment, Michigan has a system in place that provides both crossbow and modified bow options).
Since you or MBH never answered it I have to assume the program for the weak is one of two things. I'll offer my answer since no one else did. The program must be the Disability one my dad was NOT able to get. Or was this program that is referred too called Firearm Seasons. Hopefully this was not the suggested program since it was a wrong season. Don't bother to answer now. Doesn't really matter to me... but maybe to others.

I'm confused at what your getting at.


Since you're a Rep for the MBH perhaps you could have chimed in a second time since I again asked for it. I sent a e-mail to the MBH contact us link. Took a day or so but I got a reply from....(name doesn't matter here) Um official. He told me the two bullets in question were about the new permit criteria that MBH had so much to do with AND at MBH"s request. Oddly he never answered my question either. He said it was a program for the(physically unable to use conventional archery equipment, Michigan has a system in place) Today I received (to my second response and told him my dad was old and weak and fallen through the cracks) more. It was a better break down the permit requirements (I think ). 5.95 Permit to take game with a crossbow First line PERMANATE DISABLED) from there it defines the disabilities....Didn't see age or weakness listed. But he was helpful telling me how wheels vs cams work. And also about a 100 year old man shooting a league with a 28 pound bow with his fingers (His Choice, shot fingers all his life). His choice WOW 100 and had a choice. Odd that was added.

It is difficult for me to address this as I wasn't involved in the response. But i apologize if you feel that you didn't get the appropriate response.

Terry here was two distinct cries for help where the MBH (who were so helpful in designing this system) had a chance to help out 1 old man. In defense though I didn't directly ASK the MBH either in the e-mails.

Please feel free to PM me in the future, I will also send you my phone number. As you mentioned you didn't directly ask me, again I'm sorry that I didn't "catch" your call for help as being directed to MBH or me. I will try to do better in the future.

But let me say reagarding your post regarding ethics in the General hunting Forum, I very rarely go there you can check and I think I've only made 3-5 posts on that board. The only reason I saw this one was when I opened up my webpage I saw your "thank you DNR" thread with your name below and thought this is the guy who's dad just got a permit. So that and that alone was the reason I even saw this post.

Again I sorry I don't do a better job of scanning all the boards. The overwhelming majority of my posts have been in the crossbow forum.


Terry answer these two questions with an honest yes or no.

Was a prevision, statement or listed age for Seniors or Elderly on the list of criteria at any one time?

Yes or no?

If said prevision, statement, or listed age for Seniors or Elderly on the list of criteria was removed. Did the MBH try to get it and keep it reapplied?

Yes or no?

Before I answer the above questions I would like to make a few remarks. I don't always know the answer to all these questions, MBH has a legislative committee and they report the outcome of issue and we don't always know every detail.

So when people ask me questions, it often times require me to call someone that was involved and get an answer. That takes alot of time and energy, I know there is and old saying about kitchens and heat.

If one of you choose not to answer questions you have the right and know one makes an issue of it, but I one the other am treated as though I have an obligation to do so. While I may agree with that to some degree it none the less creates extra work for me.

Also I often wonder when someone asks me questions like the above do they already know the answer?

So my answer today is I DON'T KNOW. I will call the president and find out.



Lastly in closing this was an open response to SKINNER. Skinner I appreciate your response, but do feel your anger at MBH is somewhat misdirected.

Three MBH members attempted to help you, four if you count the response you didn't like from the website.

Myself
Soggy
Mike Shepard

I'm sorry I let you down.

Terry
 

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Was a prevision, statement or listed age for Seniors or Elderly on the list of criteria at any one time?

Yes or no?

If said prevision, statement, or listed age for Seniors or Elderly on the list of criteria was removed. Did the MBH try to get it and keep it reapplied?

Yes or no?

Skinner
MBH has consistently opposed using age as a criteria for crossbow permits. Last year a bill was introduced in the House of Representatives that would have allowed unrestricted crossbow use for those 69 or older. MBH opposed that bill and said so on their web page at the time. (I have a screen cap of that statement from the MBH web page but it's on my home lap top.

During the March 6th, 2008, crossbow workgroup meeting the question of using age as one of the criteria for a permit was discussed. Bruce Leavey, President of MBH made the following statement in that discussion.

"Bow hunters are concerned that if the age is lowered, it will continue to go lower, and they don't view age as a disability." -source minutes from the March 6th, 2008 NRC crossbow workgroup meeting.

Age was subsequently dropped as a potential criteria to be considered for crossbow permits.

The result of that decision was to move forward with the bill in the House, which was eventually amended to include full inclusion and was passed overwhelmingly in the House. Kind of Ironic that if MBH had not voiced opposition at that time, it probably would have resulted in those 69 or older being able to hunt but the full inclusion bill would never even have been introduced. Kinda funny how Karma works sometimes. :lol:
 

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Guys, several posts have been either edited or deleted because they got off topic. Two long posts, one by this threads author and the other a response to that were left intact for the simple reason that the author of this thread did, more or less, keep to the topic at hand.

Skinner, Congrats to you and your father. It was great to hear the excitement in your post and through it the excitement of your father.

As for the rest of the posts keep the debate over pro-inclusion or anti-inclusion out of this thread.
 

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MBH has consistently opposed using age as a criteria for crossbow permits. Last year a bill was introduced in the House of Representatives that would have allowed unrestricted crossbow use for those 69 or older. MBH opposed that bill and said so on their web page at the time. (I have a screen cap of that statement from the MBH web page but it's on my home lap top.

During the March 6th, 2008, crossbow workgroup meeting the question of using age as one of the criteria for a permit was discussed. Bruce Leavey, President of MBH made the following statement in that discussion.

"Bow hunters are concerned that if the age is lowered, it will continue to go lower, and they don't view age as a disability." -source minutes from the March 6th, 2008 NRC crossbow workgroup meeting.

Age was subsequently dropped as a potential criteria to be considered for crossbow permits.

The result of that decision was to move forward with the bill in the House, which was eventually amended to include full inclusion and was passed overwhelmingly in the House. Kind of Ironic that if MBH had not voiced opposition at that time, it probably would have resulted in those 69 or older being able to hunt but the full inclusion bill would never even have been introduced. Kinda funny how Karma works sometimes. :lol:
When did age become a disability?? I am pretty sure that the constitution even states that age cannot be used for such determination. What is more ironic is that this was never about the handicapped or the elderly, but rather about $$$$$. Nevermind . . .
Dan
 

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What is more ironic is that this was never about the handicapped or the elderly, but rather about $$$$$. Nevermind . . .
Dan
Dan- What makes you so sure this is all about money? Do you think Skinner and his dad are going to benefit financially by fighting to get his dad a permit? Do you believe that it's all about money for all these people that support full inclusion here on this board? That dog don't hunt when you consider that 94 Congressman would have to be on the take in order for you to be correct. Is that what you believe?
 
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