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13 “non-tribal” commercial outfits, he wrote. The Garden Peninsula is famous for Whitefish sandwiches; now via truck from the north shore I believe.

Lately I am wondering if the Lk MI Whitefish population competes with the Lk MI Lake Trout population, and who wants what where, if so.

I am getting closer to buying some fish some day. $6/gallon fuel makes a rain day excursion to just go catch some a more fraught decision.
 

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13 “non-tribal” commercial outfits, he wrote. The Garden Peninsula is famous for Whitefish sandwiches; now via truck from the north shore I believe.

Lately I am wondering if the Lk MI Whitefish population competes with the Lk MI Lake Trout population, and who wants what where, if so.

I am getting closer to buying some fish some day. $6/gallon fuel makes a rain day excursion to just go catch some a more fraught decision.
Just about everywhere in this state it's a closer drive to a swimming fish dinner than it is to a fish market that sells great lakes fish.
 

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The scenario you outline cannot occur, The Great Lakes Fishery Commission was established in 1954 via international agreement with Canada. The language of the agreement specifically sets Great Lakes fishery management squarely in the hands of the shorelines states and Canada. State directed management of each Great Lake was further underscored in 1965 when the lake management committees were established, with nor direct Federal or Canadian representation on any of them.

Enlighten us by outlining WHAT management monies the USFWS currently provides to the State of Michigan or any other Great Lakes state for fishery management efforts on an annual basis?

Enforcement of the Consent Decree agreement specifics like gear type that can be deployed, total allowabe catch (TAC) apportionment, fishing seasons, and subsistence fisher oversight falls to tribal enforcement, Sate enforcement personnel, as well as USFWS and US Coast Guard Service personnel via ex-offcio status in the field and on all committees and councils that deal with penalties and enforcement. The dysfunctional arm of enforcement remains the Tribal Court system's failure to act punitively, documented repeatedly since the Fox decision.

Separate but equal as a doctrine in the United States was struck down by the Brown decision in 1954. How is it that a treaty the specifically oulines that game and fish taking rights should continue to be granted, until those lands are needed for settlement, is selectiively interpreted and enforced by the Federal courts? This i particulary aggregious when you factor-in the willingness of our current Supreme Court to overturn what several of those who voted in favor of this action stated publicly and repeatedly that they viewed this as settled law.

The 2020 cesus ondicates that roughly a quarter of the 10 million residents you toss out there are under 21. I strongly doubt this cohert should be included in your enumeration of potential fish purchasers. But, let's go at your argument from a demand consumption perspective.

The State and tribal commercial fishery has an annual revenue value of between 10-12million dollars in Michigan. Sea Grant set the annual revenue of the Michigan based charter fleet at 16 to 18million for Lake Michigan waters, without including revenues generated by Lake Huron charter operators. Over half of charter customers do not fish or do not fish regularly per their data. The Great Lakes Fishery Commission sets the anual value of the Great Lakes fishery at just under 7 billion dollars, so lets just do a back-of-the-envelope apportionment by dividiing that value by five lakes to get a ballpark figure of 1.4 Billion for Lake Michigan's fishery...one reason why some of those non-fishing but fish eating folks you tallied-up reside and recreat here annually. I won't touch on your fuzzy math further where you attempt to infer that your local fishery crowd's fish purchasing carries through statewide or even on a broad local scale either. I will add though, that if you buy whitefish in Marquette, it likely originated from the Thill's fish house, or VanLandschoot's in Munising: both commercial fishers who number among the 13 non-tribal operators. Thill's ships to Escanaba and Iron Mountain restaurants as well.

Unlike you, I can't determine a plausible means of apportioning use and demand that substantially offsets the size and revenue generated by the Great Lakes sport fishery to validate your argument either by looking at Public usage, or the economics of consumption. A pretty sizeable chunk of the sport fishers that I know here in the U.P. are loath to purchase fish, but many of them are Finnish, priding themselves in their self-relience.
I’m still waiting on a response of what tribal laws are on the books regarding fishing and the penalties associated with such infractions. If tribal laws are not broken because they do not exist it means no action will be taken in tribal court. If laws are broken they must be a penalty. Non tribal members may not like it but it’s no different than our legal system. The tribes have their compiled laws just like non tribal members do. It’s up the each party to enforce and penalize offenders as they see fit, outside parties have no say.
 

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Just about everywhere in this state it's a closer drive to a swimming fish dinner than it is to a fish market that sells great lakes fish.
That’s true. But I do drive by the chance to purchase semi-regular and eventually that will pull me in. I usually forget to stop then remember the idea 20 miles later. Sucks to get old. The Whitefish sausage at one famous place is outstanding, but they were busted for cheating; kinda turned me off that particular delight. Might camp for a night on the Garden soon, might even result in my first Whitefish sandwich in a half-dozen years. I figure they will be $13.99 by now though.
 

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The scenario you outline cannot occur, The Great Lakes Fishery Commission was established in 1954 via international agreement with Canada. The language of the agreement specifically sets Great Lakes fishery management squarely in the hands of the shorelines states and Canada. State directed management of each Great Lake was further underscored in 1965 when the lake management committees were established, with nor direct Federal or Canadian representation on any of them.

Enlighten us by outlining WHAT management monies the USFWS currently provides to the State of Michigan or any other Great Lakes state for fishery management efforts on an annual basis?

Enforcement of the Consent Decree agreement specifics like gear type that can be deployed, total allowabe catch (TAC) apportionment, fishing seasons, and subsistence fisher oversight falls to tribal enforcement, Sate enforcement personnel, as well as USFWS and US Coast Guard Service personnel via ex-offcio status in the field and on all committees and councils that deal with penalties and enforcement. The dysfunctional arm of enforcement remains the Tribal Court system's failure to act punitively, documented repeatedly since the Fox decision.

Separate but equal as a doctrine in the United States was struck down by the Brown decision in 1954. How is it that a treaty the specifically oulines that game and fish taking rights should continue to be granted, until those lands are needed for settlement, is selectiively interpreted and enforced by the Federal courts? This i particulary aggregious when you factor-in the willingness of our current Supreme Court to overturn what several of those who voted in favor of this action stated publicly and repeatedly that they viewed this as settled law.

The 2020 cesus ondicates that roughly a quarter of the 10 million residents you toss out there are under 21. I strongly doubt this cohert should be included in your enumeration of potential fish purchasers. But, let's go at your argument from a demand consumption perspective.

The State and tribal commercial fishery has an annual revenue value of between 10-12million dollars in Michigan. Sea Grant set the annual revenue of the Michigan based charter fleet at 16 to 18million for Lake Michigan waters, without including revenues generated by Lake Huron charter operators. Over half of charter customers do not fish or do not fish regularly per their data. The Great Lakes Fishery Commission sets the anual value of the Great Lakes fishery at just under 7 billion dollars, so lets just do a back-of-the-envelope apportionment by dividiing that value by five lakes to get a ballpark figure of 1.4 Billion for Lake Michigan's fishery...one reason why some of those non-fishing but fish eating folks you tallied-up reside and recreat here annually. I won't touch on your fuzzy math further where you attempt to infer that your local fishery crowd's fish purchasing carries through statewide or even on a broad local scale either. I will add though, that if you buy whitefish in Marquette, it likely originated from the Thill's fish house, or VanLandschoot's in Munising: both commercial fishers who number among the 13 non-tribal operators. Thill's ships to Escanaba and Iron Mountain restaurants as well.

Unlike you, I can't determine a plausible means of apportioning use and demand that substantially offsets the size and revenue generated by the Great Lakes sport fishery to validate your argument either by looking at Public usage, or the economics of consumption. A pretty sizeable chunk of the sport fishers that I know here in the U.P. are loath to purchase fish, but many of them are Finnish, priding themselves in their self-relience.
Cork
Please, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to start a conflict, I'm making this comment as a question because I don't have the answer in my mind.
Let me make a MACRO,MACRO overview of this Consent .
Isn't there an organization that does a statistical calculation of the quantity of fish by species and make a determination of how many fish by species there are ? Doesn't the Consent Decree allocate by ratio how many fish can be harvested by the Native netters?
So my question is; what does the Great Lakes sport fishers/recreational anglers have to do with the Consent rewrite.
 

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If this is about the tribes commercial interests, why are lakers being stocked by the millions and whitefish virtually not stocked at all?
The food source for whitefish has been mostly eliminated by invasive species brought into the Great Lakes by non tribal members. Ever heard of zebra and quagga mussels? They filter out the food required for opossum shrimp to thrive. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysida
 

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The food source for whitefish has been mostly eliminated by invasive species brought into the Great Lakes by non tribal members. Ever heard of zebra and quagga mussels? They filter out the food required for opossum shrimp to thrive. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysida
Yes, whitefish actually eat them. They're also quite fond of another invasive species now common in the great lakes...the round goby.
 

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I’m still waiting on a response of what tribal laws are on the books regarding fishing and the penalties associated with such infractions. If tribal laws are not broken because they do not exist it means no action will be taken in tribal court. If laws are broken they must be a penalty. Non tribal members may not like it but it’s no different than our legal system. The tribes have their compiled laws just like non tribal members do. It’s up the each party to enforce and penalize offenders as they see fit, outside parties have no say.
When I want to find an answer, I do the research myself, why your request to spoon feed yielded no response. The ennforcement and regulations section of the Consent Decree begins on page 101...

I wondered why you were so glib in those comments and question. Tribal regulations and enforcement are a closley guarded secret. Generally, they mimic the State's penalties, particulrly now that several State legislators did such a wonderful job of killing the efforts by Ed Mcbroom's committee to update Michigan's ancient commercial fishing statutes which confer the maximum penalty for catch quota violations at $100 per offense. Tribal courts had opted to match that fine value prior pulling the publication of their actions and decisions.

Both the Soo Band and the Great Lakes Indian Fish and Wildlife Commission used to post the court decisions in the monthly tribal newsetters, MUCC used to provide a monthly oversight summary of trapnet and gillnet catch data along with summary listing of tribal court determined penalties and violations...all no longer listed in public access tribal documents.
 

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When I want to find an answer, I do the research myself, why your request to spoon feed yielded no response. The ennforcement and regulations section of the Consent Decree begins on page 101...

I wondered why you were so glib in those comments and question. Tribal regulations and enforcement are a closley guarded secret. Generally, they mimic the State's penalties, particulrly now that several State legislators did such a wonderful job of killing the efforts by Ed Mcbroom's committee to update Michigan's ancient commercial fishing statutes which confer the maximum penalty for catch quota violations at $100 per offense. Tribal courts had opted to match that fine value prior pulling the publication of their actions and decisions.

Both the Soo Band and the Great Lakes Indian Fish and Wildlife Commission used to post the court decisions in the monthly tribal newsetters, MUCC used to provide a monthly oversight summary of trapnet and gillnet catch data along with summary listing of tribal court determined penalties and violations...all no longer listed in public access tribal documents.
There in lies the issue. Non tribal members actually do not know what actions were taken if any. It’s a closed nation that has its own laws and punishment system. It may not seem fair to outsiders but that’s the way it is.
 

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The food source for whitefish has been mostly eliminated by invasive species brought into the Great Lakes by non tribal members. Ever heard of zebra and quagga mussels? They filter out the food required for opossum shrimp to thrive. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysida
The non-tribal members you infer as source(s) of dreissenid mussel invasives were enabled by several FEDERAL agencies who side-stepped and/or ignored bilge water dumping and treatment requirements that existed. Among them the US Coast Guard Service and USACE. Freighters entering the St. Lawrence seaway were required to exchange bilge water while still in a marine system prior entry into the waterway. The USCGS failed to do their job of enforcing existing laws. Add-in that Federal legislators actually made sure that Great Lakes states with bilge water exchange laws more stringent than the Fed's were over-ruled.

This, too, is neither an accurate statement; not even partially true. Dipoeria affinis amphipods were the principle food item of lake whitefish stocks that were displaced by dreisennid mussel invasion and proliferation. Opposum shrimp played a secondary role as a food item, as well as providing a biologic pathway from demersal environments back into fish populations that were concentrated in surface or near-surface waters. Lake Whitefish recruitment has significantly declined in the northern waters of Lakes Michigan and Huron fished by tribal entities, yet while lower, it has not exhibited as marked a decline in Bays de Noc populations, exposed both to a intense winter sport fishery and a commercial fishery by non-tribal fishers.who primarily fish trapnets and some pond nets, with very limited gillnet usage. You can make a pretty good indirect argument that gear usage (gillnets) has a marked impact via induced mortality on undersize and underaged whitefish, yet CORA biologists opt not to see it. The Soo band is attempting to initiate planting of Lake Whitefish, coupled with a Federal program that is attempppting to indentfy key spawning reefs for round goby eradication
 

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There in lies the issue. Non tribal members actually do not know what actions were taken if any. It’s a closed nation that has its own laws and punishment system. It may not seem fair to outsiders but that’s the way it is.
But they use our well fare & free medical system, right? Seems fair! Cool👍 Souvern nation my fanny!!✌
 

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There in lies the issue. Non tribal members actually do not know what actions were taken if any. It’s a closed nation that has its own laws and punishment system. It may not seem fair to outsiders but that’s the way it is.
I disagree, had Michigan's legislators passed an effective commercial fishing statute that would serve as a guidance document, penalties that are not punitive would not exist. Why? Because there exists a mechanism to shame the tribal courts into effective enforcement, but not until the State sets that standard, which the Feds will cajole and coerce them into adopting. And you said you read the Consent Decree...?

There is a resolution mechanism in place.
 

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When I want to find an answer, I do the research myself, why your request to spoon feed yielded no response. The ennforcement and regulations section of the Consent Decree begins on page 101...
It's interesting that you should even have to make mention of this to this poster. In another thread luv2hunt suggested I attend a national powwow convention to find the information about the tribes that he was referencing that has given him a new take on the Consent Decree.
 

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But they use our well fare & free medical system, right? Seems fair! Cool👍 Souvern nation my fanny!!✌
Would it have been better if all the land in the 1836 treaty remained under full tribal control excluding non Native American? If that happened there would be no need for this thread.
 

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But they use our well fare & free medical system, right? Seems fair! Cool👍 Souvern nation my fanny!!✌
As I said, seperate but equal was supposedly struck down in 1954.

Actually, they have access to Federal Supply Schedule pricing for all medications the Federal Government purchases from the pharma. industry. The Feds get a discount garanteed to be X percent below the best commercial price. Example: The Soo Band had garanteed their elder population free medications for life, which along with the off-book corporation that partnered with the Greek consortium on the Detroit casino venture that is now defunct was driving them bankrupt via their drug purchase expenditures prior Merck working to enact this purchase pathway via a VA hospital in Oklahoma.''

I had all the tribal health care accounts for Michigan and Wisconsin
 

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I disagree, had Michigan's legislators passed an effective commercial fishing statute that would serve as a guidance document, penalties that are not punitive would not exist. Why? Because there exists a mechanism to shame the tribal courts into effective enforcement, but not until the State sets that standard, which the Feds will cajole and coerce them into adopting. And you said you read the Consent Decree...?

There is a resolution mechanism in place.
I’ve also read Judge Fox’s interpretation.
 

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It's interesting that you should even have to make mention of this to this poster. In another thread luv2hunt suggested I attend a national powwow convention to find the information about the tribes that he was referencing that has given him a new take on the Consent Decree.
What was your opinion after you spent the day talking to multiple tribal members and their opinion of the consent decree?
 
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