[GuppyII]

The one fishery in St Ignace sure does sell Walleye, along with Lake Trout, Salmon, and Whitefish, and Smelt. A local (mid-Michigan ) restaurant serves it up regularly.

 

[Gordon Casey]

One hudred pounds round weight per day for LTBB fishers, Gordon. From my perspective semantics blurr at a catch value somewhere in the rearview mirror.

My conversations with Odawa and LTBB netters fishing in the UP repeatedly centered around diversifying their commercial take and species array as whitefish stocks decline in Lakes Huron and Michigan. From their broad perspective, lake trout don't offer a very high rate of return...partially because their take is limited. Their particular focus was to gain access to species that would bring a high rate of return, independent of the correlation between the declines in abudance and recruitment of their current target species within Treaty of 1836 waters open to commercial "exploitation". It was alway interesting to listent Chuck Mandenjian outline lake trout recovery in Lake Michigan waters "while treading very lightly" on the substantially reduced proportion of wild origin fish in northern Lake Michigan waters at the annual Great Lakes Fishery Commission's annual lake committees meeting.

So the LTBB fishers like to eat fish. You know damn well they are selling their catch. Maybe that was a loop hole in the agreement and Tribal enforcement is non existent.
That's just another reason why strict enforcement rules are necessary.

 

[Cork Dust]

So the LTBB fishers like to eat fish. You know damn well they are selling their catch. Maybe that was a loop hole in the agreement and Tribal enforcement is non existent.
That's just another reason why strict enforcement rules are necessary.

Why I would prefer 10 commercial operations rather than 80 subsistance fishers operating one net out of the back of a vehicled when it comes to policing and enforcement. That transponder located on each boat doesn't seem like overreach anymore, does it?

 

[Gordon Casey]

Why I would prefer 10 commercial operations rather than 80 subsistance fishers operating one net out of the back of a vehicled when it comes to policing and enforcement. That transponder located on each boat doesn't seem like overreach anymore, does it?

Like I said before, transponders insinuate guilt before being found guilty. In the American justice system, isn't a person innocent until found guilty. Maybe we should place a speed monitor in every vehicle and upload all speed limit violations, then the State can send a ticket in the mail.
Sounds like almost everyone in the Native community knows who the violators are, so have the Tribal court cite them for their violations.

 

[Luv2hunteup]

Like I said before, transponders insinuate guilt before being found guilty. In the American justice system, isn't a person innocent until found guilty. Maybe we should place a speed monitor in every vehicle and upload all speed limit violations, then the State can send a ticket in the mail.
Sounds like almost everyone in the Native community knows who the violators are, so have the Tribal court cite them for their violations.

Transponders on all lead core lines, lead sinkers and lead downrigger weights would also be a good idea for any body of water that either feeds or any lake system used for drinking purposes. That won’t happen either but at least there is an advisory for not having too much fish in your diet. That fixed that problem, didn’t it?

 

[Cork Dust]

Cork, I get the vibe that your word "tradition" is a tongue in cheek comment indicating that the "new" Tribal members (young) really have no tradition. Maybe you are correct.
Remember prior to 1985, the subsistence tradition was stifled by the State and the young were not able to practice their traditions.
A few years back I had conversation with a Native, harvesting wild rice on Tawas Lake. He had his kids and their friends out in the lake in canoes pounding the grain into the canoe. He was traching them them the tradition of harvesting rice using Native tools. He was a super interesting guy, the tallest Native I have ever seen, about 6'4" with black pig tails. Very eloquent, PhD from Michigan, worked for the State and subsequently the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Was the Tribal representative investigating the environmental effects of that oil spill on the K'zoo river.
Also, had conversation with some tough arse Natives at the Sault, they were dealers at the casino. They were talking about their Native dress and what traditional dance they were going to perform at a Pow-Wow.
Yes, the natives make a big deal about their traditions.
[/QUOTE}

Yes, particularly when Federal subsidies stream forth! One of my favorites is fry bread, a food product that they did not eat prior western colonization, that is a stable of every pow-wow

I am both fascinated and impressed that it would receive such focus by Odawa and LTBB trbal leadership...immediately prior the renegotiation of the Consent Decree, what an odd coincidence...random stochastic chance in action. Dr. Bill Cooper was right when he coined the term.. Even better when tribal natural resources personnel and equipmment is used... Night Moves is right, our cadre of subsitence guys routinely sell the catch to any and all buyers, often met at the City dock when the land.

The Annishnabe generally fished rivers during spawning runs, rvermouth bays and coastal waters or Lakes MICHIGAN ans HURON as well as the St. Marys Rapids, per their limited written his story, supported by the anthropological evidence of the movements into the Great Lakes from the mouth of the st. Lawrence River where they originated.. Tribal fishing with gillnets in inland lakes or the Great Lakes was not a part of food gathering activities. Most of the fish in their diets per anthropologic records were caught in a type of pond net, speared, or dipped when they were aggregated inshore to spawn. There were significant river spawning stocks of lake whitefish, menominee, lake trout, lake sturgeon, walleye, grayling to exploit still in the era the Treaty of 1836 was drawn-up, yet near-zero inland lake fishing. The had a large fleet of freighter canoes used to trade among villages and with other tribes that they gad not displaced along the coast and inland. But without a written history and formal land ownership statutes, stealing their land and resoures, as well as displacement of those indigenous peoples that preceded them is conveniently overlooked, internally and externally.

Again, when there are three enforcement people overseeing dozens of nets spread over a few many square miles of water and several fishing operations running those nets, having ready access to accurate knowledge of both location of those fishers while out tending nets, as well as when the land their catch enables functional enforcement. I don't know how to break this to you, but you example of the traffic violations is already being monitored by survellance cameras at many municipal intersections that also note speed and traffic signal phase, issuing both a citation and the photo of perpetrator to the guilty party. I suspect we each have very different latent guilt levels as well based on or frequency of crossing the line... I always apprecieate the Civil Libertarians, they offer such convoluted and often cross-purpose argumments to defend their perspectives.

 

[Gordon Casey]

I think those Federal subsidies can be considered as reparation for past deeds. Your example of law enforcement for speeding was not as I explained. Yes, some Cities have radar guns on light posts and nab you as you speed by. My analogy was that you have a transponder, in that case, you are being monitored wherever you travel.
I get all that Native history, but didn't the Treaty, or a Judges opinion, decree that subsistence living evolves with time? Therefore, the Consent should evolve as well.

 

[Josh R]

I'm beginning to think the head of the DNR is Native

 

[Gordon Casey]

I'm beginning to think the head of the DNR is Native

.........or a commercial netter!

 

[tgafish]

Dan Eichinger

Lex Luther

Coincidence?????

 

[Josh R]

.........or a commercial netter!

Commercial and Native since they're pretty much the same!!!

 

[Night Moves]

I'm beginning to think the head of the DNR is Native

The head of the DNR is hired by the governor and typically does what the governor wants. The current DNR director is no exception. You can expect Dan Eichinger to mirror Whitmer's sentiments on these issues. She is a liberal and will want to at least appear to side with the Indians on these treaty issues so she can maintain her liberal street cred nationally. This is why sporting groups are so concerned that the DNR is not representing their interests. I expect fully that we will get screwed on this agreement and its why when I moved to northern Michigan, that I chose an area not in the ceded territory. At least the DNR has been on the side of sport fishermen on the state licensed commercial fishing issues so far.

 

[Gordon Casey]

The head of the DNR is hired by the governor and typically does what the governor wants. The current DNR director is no exception. You can expect Dan Eichinger to mirror Whitmer's sentiments on these issues. She is a liberal and will want to at least appear to side with the Indians on these treaty issues so she can maintain her liberal street cred nationally. This is why sporting groups are so concerned that the DNR is not representing their interests. I expect fully that we will get screwed on this agreement and its why when I moved to northern Michigan, that I chose an area not in the ceded territory. At least the DNR has been on the side of sport fishermen on the state licensed commercial fishing issues so far.

I am conflicted as to what the Governor and DNR can DIRECTLY do to force the Consent issue? Sure, State representatives sit at the table and do the bargaining but they bargain from a position of weakness.
I'm sure the State, (DNR) have been fighting tooth and nail but the Tribes are stonewalling until they get what they are satisfied with. That's why there has been a damn near 2 year delay in a new Consent.
If there is a stalemate, the Fed's will dictate the new direction and I don't think we want to go in that direction.

 

[Night Moves]

I am conflicted as to what the Governor and DNR can DIRECTLY do to force the Consent issue? Sure, State representatives sit at the table and do the bargaining but they bargain from a position of weakness.
I'm sure the State, (DNR) have been fighting tooth and nail but the Tribes are stonewalling until they get what they are satisfied with. That's why there has been a damn near 2 year delay in a new Consent.
If there is a stalemate, the Fed's will dictate the new direction and I don't think we want to go in that direction.

The state will likely give the Indians everything they want while trying to prevent a collapse of the fisheries, which would not be good politically for the governor. I'm sure the Indians are making all sorts of outrageous commercial fishing demands that could be detrimental to the fisheries.

 

[Gordon Casey]

The head of the DNR is hired by the governor and typically does what the governor wants. The current DNR director is no exception. You can expect Dan Eichinger to mirror Whitmer's sentiments on these issues. She is a liberal and will want to at least appear to side with the Indians on these treaty issues so she can maintain her liberal street cred nationally. This is why sporting groups are so concerned that the DNR is not representing their interests. I expect fully that we will get screwed on this agreement and its why when I moved to northern Michigan, that I chose an area not in the ceded territory. At least the DNR has been on the side of sport fishermen on the state licensed commercial fishing issues so far.

Night Moves
I don't think the recreational fishers are restricted in any way to fish in ceded territory.
The DNR is and should be the representative of the recreational angler's. But I have found the Government (Govenor), Courts and Senate have, in many cases, been a thorn in the side of the DNR. The DNR modified the depth of nets the commercial netter could fish. That lasted about 2 days when the Courts over ruled. McBroom killed those 3 commercial netting law revisions.
A surprise, at least to me, McBroom sponsered SB-251 which is essence, took the commercial netting regulation modifications away from the DNR and made it a legislative issue since they are controlled by laws rather than regulations. Bill 251 snuck through the legislative process and was signed by the Govenor before any one knew what happened.
In today's world, politics has become black and white, one faction can be all in on an issue they desire and the other side is, all out. The days of compromise solutions are all but gone. When was the last time most of all were SATISFIED with the decision.
We need to work together rather than being at each others throats, Maybe some of the highly charged issues can be resolved with most being satisfied.

 

[Jerry Lamb]

The state will likely give the Indians everything they want while trying to prevent a collapse of the fisheries, which would not be good politically for the governor. I'm sure the Indians are making all sorts of outrageous commercial fishing demands that could be detrimental to the fisheries.

Do they actually contribute anything, or just take?

 

[Gordon Casey]

Do they actually contribute anything, or just take?

Someone reported that the Tribes planted over 40 million fish taken from their hatcheries.

 

[B.Jarvinen]

They build Casinos so your Wife has something to do while you go fishing, if that counts. Which I think could be a bit of an invisible Ace card for recreational anglers. Tribal fishing revenue is likely miniscule in comparison to gaming revenue. I think when this thing finally gets over the goal line (next year? 24? - better just start the next round of negotiations the next day after the signing), there could be plenty of fish for everyone. Maybe the most disappointed party will be the 19th Century Ecologists, though they are just as silent as the other parties here. But then climate change is going to crush those folks regardless.

 

[Gordon Casey]

They build Casinos so your Wife has something to do while you go fishing, if that counts. Which I think could be a bit of an invisible Ace card for recreational anglers. Tribal fishing revenue is likely miniscule in comparison to gaming revenue. I think when this thing finally gets over the goal line (next year? 24? - better just start the next round of negotiations the next day after the signing), there could be plenty of fish for everyone. Maybe the most disappointed party will be the 19th Century Ecologists, though they are just as silent as the other parties here. But then climate change is going to crush those folks regardless.

B.J.
I think your going to see a new Consent Decree within 2-3 weeks. The deadline is Sept. 30. It's been delayed long enough, at least that is what the Fed's said.

 

[Zorba]

From what I’ve been hearing it’s the tribes that are arguing among themselves about who gets what and where and this is causing the delay. The state is just sitting at the table waiting for the tribes to settle their own differences.