Michigan Sportsman Forum banner

1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,582 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys,

My wife and I went to the range today to get our rifles sighted in, and after about 2 hours and almost 2 boxes of shells, im still 3-4" off.

I'm shooting a Winchester Model 70 Lightweight in .270 using Hornady SST 130 grain with a Nikon 3-9x40 Buckmasters BDC that is only 3 years old.

100 yards with a Lead Sled.

The gun is about 18 years old but in fantastic shape; I probably take better care of my gun than I do my own truck. So a neglected gun isn't the problem.

My first shot: Bullseye

I decided to take a "confirmation" shot, now im 2-3" up and right. :confused:

Hmm..thats wierd I thought.

I shot again, same spot. So i moved my scope adjustments a few clicks down and left. Now im too far. Im thinking 1/4" @100 yards, I only moved it a few clicks, not 15 clicks. Now im shooting low but right on after a few adjustments. I adjust it to go up a few, now im shooting high and right. :mad:

The same thing keeps going on. I move only a few clicks and im way off one way or another whether its in the direction I move it or the other way.

I thought maybe its the bullets (even though they've been dead on the past few years). So for the heck of it, I tried shooting my wife's Winchester Ballistic Silvertips in 130gr. SAME THING. Shooting all over.

What could be going on?? I've been shooting these bullets for 3 years and i NEVER have to shoot more than 5 shots. It is THAT accurate. A few clicks in one direction and im bullseye. But this year I cannot figure out what is going on. We're going to a whitetail outfitter in November and there's no way I'm going until I'm shooting bullseyes again.

I thought since I got the gun used and don't know how many shots were fired before I got it that maybe it has some copper fouling in it that is affecting the accuracy and it didn't effect it until THIS year? So I brought it home and gave it a real thorough cleaning with Butch's Bore Shine. Put a saturated patch through, waited a few minutes. Put another through, waited. Then ran a brush through 10 times and then followed up with saturated patches until clean. Then ran the brush ONE MORE time back and forth, broke some more loose, then ran patches until clean. Got a lot of crap out of that barrel ( a lof of blue patches indicating copper).

Hopefully this helps? Next time I'm going to wait a few minutes between shots? I also inspected the crowning just in case. That was in good shape, so we can rule that out.


Sorry for the huge post guys, but I'm very frustrated. Especially since this scope is only 3 years old, gun is always cleaned and has shot phenomenal, and the bullets have never let me down. I appreciate ANY help guys.

THANK YOU!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,225 Posts
Check the scope mounts! One may have came lose.

I would guess you take the action out of the stock when cleaning?... Check to make sure everything is right. If i dont have the box for the mag. in the right spot on my 700 it will do the same thing.

If everything checks out, i would lean toward scope failure. Check the scope for rattles and that the recticle is still sitting correct.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,582 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Check the scope mounts! One may have came lose.

I would guess you take the action out of the stock when cleaning?... Check to make sure everything is right. If i dont have the box for the mag. in the right spot on my 700 it will do the same thing.

If everything checks out, i would lean toward scope failure. Check the scope for rattles and that the recticle is still sitting correct.
Yup I take the bolt out every time and clean the action, including the bolt recesses.

The scope seems to be in tip top shape.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
269 Posts
Hey guys,

My wife and I went to the range today to get our rifles sighted in, and after about 2 hours and almost 2 boxes of shells, im still 3-4" off.

I'm shooting a Winchester Model 70 Lightweight in .270 using Hornady SST 130 grain with a Nikon 3-9x40 Buckmasters BDC that is only 3 years old.

100 yards with a Lead Sled.

The gun is about 18 years old but in fantastic shape; I probably take better care of my gun than I do my own truck. So a neglected gun isn't the problem.

My first shot: Bullseye

I decided to take a "confirmation" shot, now im 2-3" up and right. :confused:

Hmm..thats wierd I thought.

I shot again, same spot. So i moved my scope adjustments a few clicks down and left. Now im too far. Im thinking 1/4" @100 yards, I only moved it a few clicks, not 15 clicks. Now im shooting low but right on after a few adjustments. I adjust it to go up a few, now im shooting high and right. :mad:

The same thing keeps going on. I move only a few clicks and im way off one way or another whether its in the direction I move it or the other way.

I thought maybe its the bullets (even though they've been dead on the past few years). So for the heck of it, I tried shooting my wife's Winchester Ballistic Silvertips in 130gr. SAME THING. Shooting all over.

What could be going on?? I've been shooting these bullets for 3 years and i NEVER have to shoot more than 5 shots. It is THAT accurate. A few clicks in one direction and im bullseye. But this year I cannot figure out what is going on. We're going to a whitetail outfitter in November and there's no way I'm going until I'm shooting bullseyes again.

I thought since I got the gun used and don't know how many shots were fired before I got it that maybe it has some copper fouling in it that is affecting the accuracy and it didn't effect it until THIS year? So I brought it home and gave it a real thorough cleaning with Butch's Bore Shine. Put a saturated patch through, waited a few minutes. Put another through, waited. Then ran a brush through 10 times and then followed up with saturated patches until clean. Then ran the brush ONE MORE time back and forth, broke some more loose, then ran patches until clean. Got a lot of crap out of that barrel ( a lof of blue patches indicating copper).

Hopefully this helps? Next time I'm going to wait a few minutes between shots? I also inspected the crowning just in case. That was in good shape, so we can rule that out.


Sorry for the huge post guys, but I'm very frustratedly. Especially since this scope is only 3 years old, gun is always cleaned and has shot phenomenal, and the bullets have never let me down. I appreciate ANY help guys.

THANK YOU!!
My money is on the scope being bad. Had the same scope two years ago go bad on me and was doing the same thing. Shot it a couple years in a row on a muzzleloader, never any problems. Pulled it out two years ago and wouldn't hold a zero, kept floating all over. Sent it to Nikon and received it back about 3 weeks later with a note saying they found a issue with the scope and they repaired it for free. I've had similar issues with other brands as well, seems like that is the first sign they are failing is a floating zero.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,249 Posts
Well ... while I do use Butch's, you have to realize it's not the best copper cleaner on the market. If you got a lot of copper out with that, chances are that, with something like Sweet's, you're going to get a lot more! BTW, I have Warne QD rings on my Encore and, after changing scopes, I could not even get it on paper at 25 yards! I called Warne and found out I tightened them in the wrong sequence (yea, felt pretty dumb!). Reinstalled it using the recommended sequence and everything fell right into place. Also, when you say "... darn near every bolt and screw on the gun" did that include both the scope mount and the rings? Double check them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
329 Posts
Generally when copper rears its ugly head it is in the form of your groups becoming larger with inconsistent impacts outside of the main group, if you are still grouping but just in the wrong location copper is not the issue. Clean if you like but understand it may take 5-10 shots for the accuracy to return to normal.

All the following assumes your rifle and sight system is operating correctly.

If you were not using a lead sled I’d say you are discharging in different areas of your breathing cycle leading to the vertical displacement on target, inconsistent trigger pressure (anything but straight back) will throw shots horizontally. The last can still happen in a lead sled and may actually happen more as you now have an obstacle surrounding your rifle throwing off you natural index points on the trigger, stock and butt plate. Something to keep in mind if you zero your rifle in a sled, don’t be surprised if your point of impact changes once it is out of the sled. Recoil begins the moment your sear releases the firing pin and a change in how the rifle vibrates or moves during that cycle will determine where the barrel is indexed/pointed as the bullet exits. The change may not be great but it will be there.

Precision is all about consistency... doing everything the same every time. A person can have some bad habits that if done consistently may be missed at one range session with acceptably results on target but next time out if they are not done the same way they will think the rifle’s zero is off. This can be seen every year at ranges across America in the fall as hunters who have not shot there rifle since last year head to the range and find they need to retune there sighting systems. They unknowingly have forgotten all the little things they did the year before that made up there shooting position and have to relearn it.

I am a big believer in train how you play. Zero how you expect to shoot in the field. For me that’s off a bipod and/or shooting sticks with my centerfire. With my muzzleloader this is even more critical as the bullet is in the bore 50 percent longer before it exits and the bullet is also 30+ percent heavier... there by allowing the beginning stages of recoil to act upon the body of the shooter for a longer period of time before bullet exit, finding and exploiting any weakness in the shooters position.

Now as to turning in a few clicks and getting greater than expected movement on target.

Provided there was not inconsistency in your position,trigger press and breathing cycle you have an issue with the scope. It is not applying the elevation/windage as dialed either due to spring set or back lash. If the rifle has been sitting idle for a long time before you run out and replace it or return it for repair run the turrets both + and – to their stops a few times and come back to your zero point. If you notice you need an inch or two and dial that but it hardly moves POI and when you adjust it again it moves a greater amount than dialed this can be back lash. For this you will want to dial past your needed correction a few “clicks” and then come back to where you wanted it. If it still isn’t tracking, then it’s time to send it in or seek a replacement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,582 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Hey thanks guys for the responses. Definitely appreciate it. Regarding the shooting form and things of that nature, over the years I've been a very consistent and careful shot, so even though I'm no sniper, I would be shocked if that was the problem.

Based on what was happening at the range and what I've read here, I'm thinking it just might be the scope. Gonna try it on Sunday before the lions game and if that doesn't work I might take it in to Dick Williams gun shop and see what they think.

Ill report back with my findings.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,980 Posts
I was with a guy a while back that had some issues at 100 yrds. His shooting was never consistent enough to be sure of how/where to adjust the scope.

My suggestion to him was go back to the 50 yrd range and get total control over what's going on, with a nice repeatable group. He was in the same boat, blasting off ammo at 100 yrds getting no where.

It seems the ammo has been ruled out? It shot fine in your gun before? I'm not blaming anything on the trigger, but that model 70 trigger can easily be adjusted to an enjoyable 3 lbs or so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,582 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Hey guys.

What I think I'm going to do is this: since reading everyone's advice on here and doing some research on the web and from my own experience, I'm making a pretty good bet that it's the scope. I know I can send it in and get it fixed, but I'm going to Cabelas tomorrow and buying a Leupold VX-2 and taking my gun and new scope to my trusted gunsmith. If they say it's the scope I'll have them mount my new one on the spot. If for some reason they find something else, I'll take the scope back no problem.

Not letting my impatience get the best of me, but I really don't have a whole lot of time in the next couple months to be monkeying around, so I'd like to get this taken care of quickly and I think this is the best course of action. If it is the scope I'll still send it in to get it fixed then probably sell it.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
316 Posts
I was with a guy a while back that had some issues at 100 yrds. His shooting was never consistent enough to be sure of how/where to adjust the scope.

My suggestion to him was go back to the 50 yrd range and get total control over what's going on, with a nice repeatable group. He was in the same boat, blasting off ammo at 100 yrds getting no where.

It seems the ammo has been ruled out? It shot fine in your gun before? I'm not blaming anything on the trigger, but that model 70 trigger can easily be adjusted to an enjoyable 3 lbs or so.

sourdough is spot on, go back to the shorter range and lose the lead sled
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,469 Posts
Someone earlier said yo let it cool down
... I would bet that'll help. Its a lightweight right? They need to cool even longer than a standard sporter bbl. They heat up quickly and will start doing weird stuff... solid 5 minutes between shots in this weather, my smokeless muzzle loader needs 10-15 in between shots when its this temp out or it is all over the place. Best of luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
611 Posts
Lots of good information so far.My bets on the mounts or scope.Every time I've had my groups open up it's been the scope or mounts.The exception to that for me is shooting my Mossberg 835,that plastic fowling from the sabots gave me fits.Let us know what the problem ended up being.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,582 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Well I bought a Leupold VX-2 the other day, took both the gun and scope to the gunsmith this morning to have everything checked out. Everything seemed fine, the mounts all were tight except he could manage to tighten the front just a tiny bit, but not enough for it to make a difference. I had him put this new scope on because all signs point towards the scope being bad. Gonna warm up a little this week unfortunately, so not sure if ill make it to the range or not...would rather have a little cooler temps. Once I shoot it I'll update.

Thanks guys.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,081 Posts
That was my thought. Bad scope

Be sure to allow the barrel to cool but my money is on the scope
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
316 Posts
I understand what you're saying, but I've used a Lead Sled for about 6-7 years and have NEVER had a problem.
Be careful with the Lead Sled, have seen to many broken wood stocks with guys using them.
They are ok to get the heavy hitters on the target but after that you need to hold the gun as close to how you will be shooting it while hunting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,582 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Be careful with the Lead Sled, have seen to many broken wood stocks with guys using them.
They are ok to get the heavy hitters on the target but after that you need to hold the gun as close to how you will be shooting it while hunting.
I agree, have heard the same. The Lead Sled was designed to put weight on it, but ive never put weight and it still works fine. With no weight, its able to push the rest back a little rather than making the stock take all the force. Hopefully that makes it easier on the stock.
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top