[Wild Thing]

Another great video from Dr Grant Woods (Growing Deer TV) and Keith Burns (Green Cover Seeds). This may be somewhat basic for you guys who are more experienced in soil health practices, but it contains a lot of great information especially for less experienced food plotters.

24:43 minutes

 

[Osceola]

Another great video from Dr Grant Woods (Growing Deer TV) and Keith Burns (Green Cover Seeds). This may be somewhat basic for you guys who are more experienced in soil health practices, but it contains a lot of great information especially for less experienced food plotters.

24:43 minutes

View attachment 888004

Regenerative Ag and deer habitat management are a match made in Heaven!

Even these guys with unlimited resources always come back to rye and clover.

 

[newaygogeorge]

yea I enjoyed it, I really thought initially when these informational shows popped up I would get bored and find them more of an advertisement but Keith burns keeps me intrigued and actually optimistic about future plot practices especially for sand farmers. I believe these type of methods to an extent can and will help us sand farmers out a whole bunch.
One of the most important aspects is the organic matter left behind. How many of us sand farmers have burned pictures in our minds of those draughty/dust bowl periods stressing our plots. This is why I really prefer small burnet mixed with rye topped dressed every year. The deep tap root burnet and it ability to reseed can work deep, and the rye can work shallow giving a balanced structure.
I just wish I can get clover to thrive long term with burnet, my plan for next season when i start my burnet program in Manistee will be to add annual clover to my rye September fall over seeding instead of trying to use a perennial at burnet startup. I am not so concerned about max clover fall growth as i am about following spring for turkeys and soil health. Guess i will just have to wait and see. Thanks for sharing WT

 

[Wild Thing]

Regenerative Ag and deer habitat management are a match made in Heaven!

Even these guys with unlimited resources always come back to rye and clover.

Ha Ha - Very much agree Matt. The very first food plot I ever planted in 1986 was winter rye and within a very few years I was planting clover as well. I cant think of a single year where I haven't planted at least some rye since. Rye and clover are as basic as …. peanut butter and jelly

 

[Wild Thing]

yea I enjoyed it, I really thought initially when these informational shows popped up I would get bored and find them more of an advertisement but Keith burns keeps me intrigued and actually optimistic about future plot practices especially for sand farmers. I believe these type of methods to an extent can and will help us sand farmers out a whole bunch.
One of the most important aspects is the organic matter left behind. How many of us sand farmers have burned pictures in our minds of those draughty/dust bowl periods stressing our plots. This is why I really prefer small burnet mixed with rye topped dressed every year. The deep tap root burnet and it ability to reseed can work deep, and the rye can work shallow giving a balanced structure.
I just wish I can get clover to thrive long term with burnet, my plan for next season when i start my burnet program in Manistee will be to add annual clover to my rye September fall over seeding instead of trying to use a perennial at burnet startup. I am not so concerned about max clover fall growth as i am about following spring for turkeys and soil health. Guess i will just have to wait and see. Thanks for sharing WT

I know that dealing with sandy soils is a horse of a different color for sure, and I feel fortunate that I have not had to experience living with sandy soil. Rocks in the soil has been my nemesis here, but at least I have very good soil once I get the rocks out. Ironically enough, one of my buddies declared that he would trade his sand for my rocks anytime i was willing to trade.

Best of luck with your new dirt NG.

 

[TDHunter]

Regenerative Ag and deer habitat management are a match made in Heaven!

Even these guys with unlimited resources always come back to rye and clover.

Osceola, maybe I missed it but seems they are promoting much more diverse crops, planted both summer and fall. Keith only mentioned the rye and hardy clover in their diverse fall blend, as surviving winter such that they green up early providing much needed food while keeping the soil building biology going as well. He didn’t directly recommend a rye clover blend. He only highlighted these two components of their fall blend as they are the only winter hardy components In that mix. As food plotters who use a rye /clover blend we do it in large part because of this early spring green up. I think it’s mischaracterized to suggest anything else.

I really appreciated the early discussion around knowing the “context” of your property and that there is not a one size fits all solution...that resonates strongly we me. I‘d love for them to expand on this, and better yet put their resources to work by offering varying seed blends focused around more common situations.ie sandy or clay soils, dryer climates, shorter growing seasons, broadcast vs drill… I know the list can go on and on but believe a better outcome from diverse mixes could be achieved by this approach vs just adding more components to the mix in order to cover a broader use? A pipe dream for sure, economics probably don’t allow it. Guess I’ll just keep tweaking things on my own.

 

[ThreeDogsDown]

yea I enjoyed it, I really thought initially when these informational shows popped up I would get bored and find them more of an advertisement but Keith burns keeps me intrigued and actually optimistic about future plot practices especially for sand farmers. I believe these type of methods to an extent can and will help us sand farmers out a whole bunch.
One of the most important aspects is the organic matter left behind. How many of us sand farmers have burned pictures in our minds of those draughty/dust bowl periods stressing our plots. This is why I really prefer small burnet mixed with rye topped dressed every year. The deep tap root burnet and it ability to reseed can work deep, and the rye can work shallow giving a balanced structure.
I just wish I can get clover to thrive long term with burnet, my plan for next season when i start my burnet program in Manistee will be to add annual clover to my rye September fall over seeding instead of trying to use a perennial at burnet startup. I am not so concerned about max clover fall growth as i am about following spring for turkeys and soil health. Guess i will just have to wait and see. Thanks for sharing WT

George, do you mix your small burnett with your rye and clover for your fall (August) planting? Or is your small burnett mixed into your spring (late May) planting?

 

[Osceola]

Osceola, maybe I missed it but seems they are promoting much more diverse crops, planted both summer and fall. Keith only mentioned the rye and hardy clover in their diverse fall blend, as surviving winter such that they green up early providing much needed food while keeping the soil building biology going as well. He didn’t directly recommend a rye clover blend. He only highlighted these two components of their fall blend as they are the only winter hardy components In that mix. As food plotters who use a rye /clover blend we do it in large part because of this early spring green up. I think it’s mischaracterized to suggest anything else.

I really appreciated the early discussion around knowing the “context” of your property and that there is not a one size fits all solution...that resonates strongly we me. I‘d love for them to expand on this, and better yet put their resources to work by offering varying seed blends focused around more common situations.ie sandy or clay soils, dryer climates, shorter growing seasons, broadcast vs drill… I know the list can go on and on but believe a better outcome from diverse mixes could be achieved by this approach vs just adding more components to the mix in order to cover a broader use? A pipe dream for sure, economics probably don’t allow it. Guess I’ll just keep tweaking things on my own.

They did recommend a summer blend planting, but for fall and spring they highlighted that rye and clover carry the load. That's all I was commenting on. I'm not inclined to do two plantings every year myself.

 

[Twalter]

They did recommend a summer blend planting, but for fall and spring they highlighted that rye and clover carry the load. That's all I was commenting on. I'm not inclined to do two plantings every year myself.

Two plantings is a lot of work! I did it the past couple of years. Probably going to stop this year. Its just not for me. I feel like my time is better spent elsewhere.

 

[TDHunter]

Yes, They are promoting the 6 principles of soil health by recommending a crop always be planted and growing. In their 2 season rotational food plot mixes, the only winter hardy varieties are clover and rye. If a goal of yours includes a lot of diversity in your plantings, this almost surely requires an annual spring/ summer planting or over seeding of annual varieties. Dr Grant’s success was built using a no till seed drill. He plants a diverse summer mix, drills a fall mix into it, drilling a summer mix back into that the following summer…repeating this again and again and again. For the majority of us without a no till drill we follow a different path If our goals include building our soil.

As you and others point out, a rye clover blend is terrific for many reasons. It feeds the deer a long time, is relatively easy to manage ( see Osceola‘s book and YouTube series for proof) and checks most of the boxes in the principles of soil health philosophy.

For myself I’m looking for increased diversity in both annual and perennial plantings. Why? I have sandy soil and medium low deer levels. I’m looking to improve my soil and increase deer sightings. I believe my best chance to do this is thru a greater diversity of plants available for as long as possible. Sounds simple and straightforward but the challenge is still figuring out what grows best, what and when is it attractive to deer, how to terminate when necessary, how to effectively overseed when necessary and performing this experimentation being a stubborn person who thinks there must be a better way😉. I do hedge my bets some, I plant different areas differently. And I’m working also on only perennial areas of mostly clover for various reasons. While soil tests are one gauge of success, I will rely heavily on first hand observations and good notes to gauge my successes and failures. Its a journey no doubt and last year was year one in many newly expanded plots but I already know I’m heading in the right direction before the snow melts and I can reassess things and get soil samples this spring. Will I have disappointments along the way…absolutely. I try to be realistic but set the bar high for myself and I dont control Mother Nature so it will always be a challenge. I enjoy it very much regardless and in the end thats what’s most important to me.

 

[Wild Thing]

Osceola, maybe I missed it but seems they are promoting much more diverse crops, planted both summer and fall. Keith only mentioned the rye and hardy clover in their diverse fall blend, as surviving winter such that they green up early providing much needed food while keeping the soil building biology going as well. He didn’t directly recommend a rye clover blend. He only highlighted these two components of their fall blend as they are the only winter hardy components In that mix. As food plotters who use a rye /clover blend we do it in large part because of this early spring green up. I think it’s mischaracterized to suggest anything else.

I really appreciated the early discussion around knowing the “context” of your property and that there is not a one size fits all solution...that resonates strongly we me. I‘d love for them to expand on this, and better yet put their resources to work by offering varying seed blends focused around more common situations.ie sandy or clay soils, dryer climates, shorter growing seasons, broadcast vs drill… I know the list can go on and on but believe a better outcome from diverse mixes could be achieved by this approach vs just adding more components to the mix in order to cover a broader use? A pipe dream for sure, economics probably don’t allow it. Guess I’ll just keep tweaking things on my own.

A wide diversity of plants living/growing in your soil is a key element in regenerative ag. Yes, rye and clover are often key ingredients but they only cover 2 of the 4 bases (Grasses and Legumes). The other 2 are brassicas and non-legume broadleafs. This is why Keith Burns specifically mentions planting cover crops of 8-10 or more different varieties of seed.

Can you improve your soil by planting only rye and clover - sure, but it won‘t improve your soil to the extent that planting all 4 categories of plants will. As you mentioned, there are often limiting factors depending upon your situation. We folks in the north have a fairly short growing season, and not everyone has access to a no-till drill, for example. I was happy to see that Grant Woods is now planting small food plots using minimal tools like a lot of food plotters are doing, rather than just promoting his soil health principles using a roller/crimper and NT drill.

 

[Osceola]

...I was happy to see that Grant Woods is now planting small food plots using minimal tools like a lot of food plotters are doing, rather than just promoting his soil health principles using a roller/crimper and NT drill.

I love what Woods teaches, but there's a bit of a disconnect because most guys can't do what he does, including the use of fire.

 

[Wild Thing]

The absolute best thing you can do to help your soil is to stop tilling it, I think we all know that. Beyond minimizing soil disturbance, we need to keep the soil covered for as many days per year as possible by including cover crops in your routine planting strategy. When your cover crops include a diversity of several different types of plants (grasses, legumes, brassicas and non-legume broadleafs) your soil will have the best opportunity to increase the soil biology needed to maximize carbon and nutrient cycling.

Grant Woods’ “Proving Grounds” are located in Missouri so he has no trouble planting both spring and fall cover crops and getting the most growing degree days out of both of them. I planted both summer and fall cover crops last year (here in the U.P.) and I have to say that I was not entirely happy with the results. I definitely could have used a longer growing season. Of course, last year was my first year of using zero synthetic fertilizers as well so I am sure that may have had some influence on the volume of forage that grew in my plots. I will be anxious to see what my soil tests look like this year, but I will likely be tweaking my planting strategy this year again - LOL - I usually do on a fairly regular basis anyway.

This is what my summer cover crop looked like last year. I did use the Green Cover Seed computer calculator to establish the amounts of each category of seed…

Here was my fall cover crop recipe….

I don’t think I will try to plant both summer and fall release cover crops this year - the summer crop just doesn't have enough time to grow well, but I think I will drill a lot of the leftover seed from last year into at least some of last fall’s cover crops this spring. I am pretty sure I will also be increasing the volume of rye into this years’ crops.

 

[TDHunter]

I love what Woods teaches, but there's a bit of a disconnect because most guys can't do what he does, including the use of fire.

His new endeavors will be interesting to follow. I didn’t see much content come out last year however. One point made in one video indicated the severe drought he was in last summer took its toll. Maybe it was a decision to document less rather than document failure. Suppose you have to keep your sponsors happy.

In this video it did appear a group was walking thru a small plot he started in the woods last year. Stumps everywhere and what appeared to be short growing rye. No drill for that area. A while back, maybe even last spring he teased the release of mixes designed to be broadcast specific. They did release “hidey hole” but I was expecting and hoping for a compliment of offerings for summer and fall.

 

[Wild Thing]

I love what Woods teaches, but there's a bit of a disconnect because most guys can't do what he does, including the use of fire.

I would love to use prescribed fire in my hardwoods but I am afraid it might get away from me and I would end up burning half of the U.P.

 

[TDHunter]

The absolute best thing you can do to help your soil is to stop tilling it, I think we all know that. Beyond minimizing soil disturbance, we need to keep the soil covered for as many days per year as possible by including cover crops in your routine planting strategy. When your cover crops include a diversity of several different types of plants (grasses, legumes, brassicas and non-legume broadleafs) your soil will have the best opportunity to increase the soil biology needed to maximize carbon and nutrient cycling.

Grant Woods’ “Proving Grounds” are located in Missouri so he has no trouble planting both spring and fall cover crops and getting the most growing degree days out of both of them. I planted both summer and fall cover crops last year (here in the U.P.) and I have to say that I was not entirely happy with the results. I definitely could have used a longer growing season. Of course, last year was my first year of using zero synthetic fertilizers as well so I am sure that may have had some influence on the volume of forage that grew in my plots. I will be anxious to see what my soil tests look like this year, but I will likely be tweaking my planting strategy this year again - LOL - I usually do on a fairly regular basis anyway.

This is what my summer cover crop looked like last year. I did use the Green Cover Seed computer calculator to establish the amounts of each category of seed…

View attachment 888194

I will see if I can find my fall cover crop recipe…

I believe you also mentioned a severe lack of rain from when you seeded late July till almost end of October. Makes a short growing season even shorter.

Last year I got most of my new plots ready first week of June And seeded over about a week plus as i put finishing touches on them and rain in forecast. I was for the most part very happy with those, however come Aug 1 when I was considering a second planting of brassicas with clover and rye to follow, I could not bring myself to terminate what I had so I mostly over seeded into it. In hindsight that worked ok as I also lacked timely rains to get things going. What I had struggled but held on. What was overseeded germinated late or not at all. This was even true for rye I put down early sept. No rain no growth and sadly no control over it.

 

[Wild Thing]

I believe you also mentioned a severe lack of rain from when you seeded late July till almost end of October. Makes a short growing season even shorter.

Last year I got most of my new plots ready first week of June And seeded over about a week plus as i put finishing touches on them and rain in forecast. I was for the most part very happy with those, however come Aug 1 when I was considering a second planting of brassicas with clover and rye to follow, I could not bring myself to terminate what I had so I mostly over seeded into it. In hindsight that worked ok as I also lacked timely rains to get things going. What I had struggled but held on. What was overseeded germinated late or not at all. This was even true for rye I put down early sept. No rain no growth and sadly no control over it.

Good point TDHunter. I had almost forgotten about the lack of rain. We have had very little rain in each of the last 2 summers. Hoping that trend turns around this year.

 

[TDHunter]

I would love to use prescribed fire in my hardwoods but I am afraid it might get away from me and I would end up burning half of the U.P.

Right! Every spring it makes the news that a prescribed burn by ”professionals“ got out of control. Numerous ones unfortunately. That only keeps my from considering it. That and I’m still trying to build a thatch layer in the first place😎

 

[TDHunter]

Good point TDHunter. I had almost forgotten about the lack of rain. We have had very little rain in each of the last 2 summers. Hoping that trend turns around this year.

and I meant to say till end of Aug not October. Can I blame spell checker on that. It’s really been acting crazy for me lately. Starting to really piss me off.

 

[newaygogeorge]

George, do you mix your small burnett with your rye and clover for your fall (August) planting? Or is your small burnett mixed into your spring (late May) planting?

TDD, In Newaygo my "startup" initial small burnet planting i used only rye as a cover crop and do this in the fall. The following season (mid to late summer) I will crimp the rye and follow up later with a rye top dressing.

My new plan for manistee is to top dress (that following season) with a combination of rye and clover. As I stated in other posts I have had multiple negative results with good small burnet germination when clover is added to the initial startup planting. The Whitetail Institute does have a combo blend "No-Plow" that offers it both combined along with chicory. At the end of the day small burnet always wins out over other perennials. Rye and burnet seems to thrive together I often think of it as big brother rye taking care of little bro burnet. The added annual clover with the rye is just an additional soil builder. Thanks for asking hope i explained it clearly.