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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK, It looks like I've finally gotten my wife to agree to let me break from my GSP's and try out the darkside and get a setter as my next up! I've seen quite a number of setters in field trials and grouse woods style trials over the years and now with the realization it WILL happen I have a couple questions about the differences between English and Lewellyn setters. I mainly have 5 requirements when the time comes and I won't have a problem spending good $$ on a pup as this is a pretty big deal that she's given in.

A. HAS to be from lines PROVEN on grouse and woodcock.
B. HAS to be pick of litter after breeders choice
C. HAS to be a female
D. I would prefer a black and white or tri-color dog
E. Would prefer a dog that runs a little towards the larger side of the breed.
F. Lines should have a good family temperment/socialize well.

I plan on hunting this dog with possible an occasional forray into the coverdog and/or shoot to retrieve trials and it will probably be a yr or two before I get pup but willing to put deposit down this summer to insure 1st pick. I'm in Ohio but I'll drive 8 hrs + to get the right pup.

All that being said what can you tell me about the differences between the two lines in the grouse woods and family? One thing I noticed when looking at pedigrees for lewellyns, at least it wasn't stated anyway that I did not see any Champions. Do they not do well in the grouse trials?? or are they just few and far between in them vs. the English setters?? As far as the english setters I've been looking at what seems to be all the "top of the heap" kennels (e.g. grouseridge) out there and have also been "attempting" sort out the lewellyn kennels that specialize in grouse dogs. ANY help that I can get would be GREATLY appreciated!!!

I know great bloodlines don't "make the dog" but they sure are a good way to start!
 

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Most any cover dog lines would meet those requirements.

Good luck on your pick thou, most good breeders will have the pup your looking for already spoken for. It will be very hard if not impossible for you to get that pick of a well bred litter, unless you are on the inside looking out. It's not likely for someone unconnected to get that pick. If you can get that pick and your unconnected,I want you to pick my lotto numbers.
 

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Milrun has some Setter pups due the 1st of March. He runs trials and competes nationally. He has "Line Bred" Stillmeadow Jim lines.
He is on this website.
 

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Bryan Wood who owns Grouse River Kennels in Southern Michigan will be offering for sale two setter litters this spring:

Pennstar x Grouse River Jessie and the pups will be on the ground in April. Also, a breeding of Long Gone Nixon to Grouse River Princess is planned.

Bryan currently has some pointers for sale:
Black & white Elhew bred “started” male
Black & white Elhew bred 8 week old female
Orange & white Elhew bred female 8 months old and pointing birds

Bryan can be reached at 734-878-4666 or on his mobile at 586-530-2890
 

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For pure Lewellyn(DNA certified)the gene pool is very small compaired to the English Setter I think is the main reason for no champions. The few that I have seen are much bigger than most grouse guys run. The trend in setter breeding now seams to be the more smaller pocket rocket dogs the smaller the more adimatted they look while running. Sounds like you know what you already want in a setter I would suggest take in as many Cover Dog trials(especially championships) as you can and really watch the dogs. I like to watch the big trialers that stake out a half dozen or more dogs you really see the difference there. Another great place to locate setters is the Cover Dog web site. Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks guys for the info so far! and you are correct, to a certain degree I do know.

Terry when your saying the lewellyns tend to be much larger than the straight english setters that they're breeding how much bigger?? I spoke with Kate at GrouseRidge the other day and she said that if she had to put a number on the weight of an average female it would be 38 lbs. so in that respect are we talking 2-3 lbs heavier of more like 10?? I know shorthair breed traits very well and I'd like to get to this point on the setters so I can make the best decision I can. Does anyone run lewellyns on a regular basis in the coverdog trials?
 

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Send me your e-mail if you're interested in seeing photo's/pedigree of an upcoming litter-due date March 4th with Duke and Ginger. Stillmeadow Jim breeding is on both sides. Duke is currently performing very well at field trials, and both dogs have been hunted successfully in the grouse woods. You could be first pick after the breeder, since we haven't advertised yet except on the forum. Duke has lewellyn breeding and weighs in 50 lbs. Ginger weighs 30 lbs.

Nick Miller, [email protected]
 

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Nick,
I'd be interested in seeing some photos of your SMJ line dogs. They sure have been "buttering my bread" so to speak whenever I see pics of that lineage.
I have Ryman type dogs now, 61 lb. male and a 50lb. female. Would you say that your dogs fall between what I have now and the pure coverdog type dogs out there? Comparing size, speed, and range?
Thanks for your time, I am probably years away from adding to my kennels but always like to see what is out there.
[email protected]

fishinlk,
I would say that the Llew vs. English debate is one of the hottest topics on the internet. If you do a search for the Shooting Sportsman talk board there are some real humdingers over there discussing this toipic.
Good luck in your search and congrats on the escape to the dark side :D .
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks Nick,
I'll zing an email later tonight. I'd like to see some pics for sure but I'm still a while away from being ready for a pup though. The more I have to compare to the better!


Scott,
I went and dug around abit, WOW that was a lot of reading!!!! I was able to get a little something out of it despite the jabs. :bash: ;) My main concern was/is getting the best bloodlines in a classy grouse hunting setter that I can hunt AND trial with hopeful expectations! In the end it seems like I could go either direction and likely find that. The biggest quest will can I do that and get a female in the size range I'd like to see(#45 give or take a little). It looks like I'm going to be spending a lot of time and gasoline in this search just trying to get more of a feel for the dogs and see a number in person before I'm even close to ready to drop a deposit!!

Anyone who wants to donate to my fuel fund feel free!!! :D
 

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fishlinlk the one Lewellyn breeder that I kwew males ran 55 to 60 females 45 to 50. but I lost his card I think he was from the Saginaw area because we were going to trade walleye fishing for salmon fishing and discuss dog at the same time. I think you will be better off with a dog from grouse lines any time you get a dog from a smaller gene pool you will also have a better chance of health problems breeding passes on both the good and the bad. There are alot of setter breeders here those mention and also Back Woods. My four setters the older two are Stoakley Diablo Jake breeding, sire to Stillmeadow Jim. My youngest are Stillmeadow Jim with Smith setters mix.I like the breeding I have but I may look in to the Smith dogs or Grouseridge next time. I don't know if the guy would answer you but you might try contact Dave Hughes he campains most of the best grouse dogs out and has won the grouse nationals at lest four times that I know of 1977,1987,1989,and 1990 all with different setters. Good luck
 

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I'll stay out of this discussion with 2 exceptions.

1 - I'm looking at a Llew breeding out of KY. The male is 50# and the female is #38. I may take a female with the hope of a 40# sweet little grouse finder. My current dog is 51# male and was a Llew crossed out to a ghost/jet train dog. . Like many breeds, you can look and find a variety of sizes in the Llew and FT lines.

2 - If you want to win a FT you have to buy what the judges want to see. If they want a snappy dog with a 12 oclock tail, high head, and quick feet, buy that dog. If you want to find a bunch of birds, you have many more options not too dependant of the "style" of the dog.
 

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I own a female with that exact same breeding . You are right.She was a bird finder. She was all hunt, not much style, { with the tail only} but I breed her to my SJ dog and got alot of dog with style ,hunt, endurance. I got the best world with these two cross. Their a pic of one of my young dog Duke on the milrun training day with that same breeding. Nick
 

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Hey Guys
Now as you all know I am not a big setter man. But one of the best wild bird dogs I ever owned came from Mil-Runs line

She was smart and snappy very good looking little girl

If I was in it to get another setter i would go with this first and formost

Infact I am in very heavy consideration of a pup out of this litter

Let me know if any one needs any info on Nicks dogs I know them all very welll

scott
 

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Most FT Coverdog lines are not of the size I think you are describing.
Some All Age Horseback dogs are taller but not really what you want in the grouse trials.
I would think you may have a hard time placing with a Llewellin in a coverdog trial. They may be larger in size though.
Most coverdog setters run 45-50 lbs for males & 40-45 for females and some smaller yet.

Lots of breeders out there, you should be able to find what you want in the time span on your horizon. You can get as good or better dog without paying for Grouse Ridge prices.
Like Reg stated Bryan Wood has a Mating of Grouse River Jesse to Pennstar.
I have 2 dogs out of Grouse River Jesse with a different sire and am very pleased with them. The Male is 50lbs & the Female about 45lbs.

I'd also post the link to Dave Medema's "Quality Dog" thread on UJ but it went out the window.

Wally
 

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Can't really add much. Just to get out and look at some dogs. Decide what you want and then do the research. Enjoy!!!

PS Wally empty your PMs.
 

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drwink said:
I'd also post the link to Dave Medema's "Quality Dog" thread on UJ but it went out the window.

Wally
It's a shame that thread blew up. There is a new one over there today on Llews that may go where I intended. We'll see.

Wally, one question I wanted to follow up was your comment about your "meat dog" (in the most positive light) vs your FT prospect. I guess what I was trying to get was your opinion of which dog would find, hold, and give shootable birds better or most efficiently. If you throw style out the window, if you had to shoot birds for dinner, which dog would you take?

Again, this isn't antagonistic. I'm just curious as this is the heart of the discussion here as well. I do agree that it would be tough for a Llew to win a trial given the desired criterion of the judges. That said, a good Llew can be a bird finding machine and a joy to own. Same can be said of a Eng setter that has a poor tail, or low head. It won't win but it can be a hell of a gundog.
 
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