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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
First off let me just say that I need to vent a little. I followed many a thread on the subject of QDM on this site. I have noticed a common opinion among the none QDM guys that get angry about QDM being "crammed down there throat". Each and every one of the none QDM guys accuse the QDM guys of being selfish and only supporting QDM so they can shoot a big buck or a "TROPHY" buck. I really think it is the other way around. I think the none QDM guys are the "SELFISH TROPHY" hunters. They are the one's shooting the little bucks and bragging back at camp about getting a buck. They also use the meat hunter excuse to try to justify shooting a small buck, well if it's only meat you want then shoot a doe, like you say you can't eat the horns. But alas this will never happen until passing on a little buck is the socially acceptable option and shooting a little buck is the socially unacceptable option. The QDM guys are the guys that are passing on bucks and even going a season, two or even more without shooting a buck. This to me indicates that the QDM guys are not the one's that are strictly after a "TROPHY", we just want our "TROPHY" to be a mature deer that is taken out of a healthy herd. My venting is over and I now feel much less stressed out.

Dan
 

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I have to agree. The problem is that the state doesn't give the hunters enough credit - if you educate your hunters, they will comply with the different regulations. People simply don't know enough about QDM.

I hunted when I was young, and then quit for a while, cause I was at school and out of town. After getting married and building on the family farm, I started hunting again. That was 3 years ago. After my second year hunting again - it occurred to me that something wasn't right. It didn't take biologists or years of experience, etc to determine that. When you can see 20 deer at once, with no bucks, something is wrong. I started asking myself - how many doe should I be shooting? How can I attract and retain deer on my property, without supplemental feeding that would cause an artificially high capacity. How can I ensure that I see some bucks when I go out? While researching and finding the answers to these questions - I began formulating my own idea of how we should hunt our property. Then I came across QDM, and that put a name to what we're doing.

QDM works, period. And its healthy for the herd.

Guys say that - " you have to hunt hard. Bucks are wary - its easy to find does, but bucks are nocturnal during hunting season.." BS, period... If you're not seeing bucks during the offseason on your property - only seeing doe and fawns - its not that they are nocturnal - its that they are not there. With all the deer feeding in the crops during the summer months - you'll see bucks if they are there..

The biologists are right. "You have to take into account what the hunters see that are out every season." - that's a common complaint - a lot of guys slam QDMA, DNR, etc for having "paper facts" with no practical knowledge to go with it. To a certain extent - that's true - you have to listen to your hunting community. But for the most part - joe hunter - who's been sitting on his forty and hunting for 30 years, doesn't understand the environment. THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT HE COULDN'T - as I said before, our hunters are not educated by the DNR. Its a proven fact that property that is not actively managed (ie- planting mast bearing trees, perennial food sources, controlled burns, selected timber harvest, etc) will become less attractive for deer to inhabit.

Those that do not believe in QDM - tell me this - what are YOUR management plans? Most non-QDM people don't have any alternative management plans. Have you thought about it? If you don't have a plan, then you can't be positively affecting your hunting. At best, you'll have negligible impact on your deer. Worst case - your hurting the herd.

Times change. You'd be hard pressed to come up with a list of activities - whether it be hunting, farming, industry, etc. - that operate the same way they did decades ago. Anytime you work with a finite resource, at some point it has to be managed.
 

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What's a "trophy"?

IN the U.P. of MI I want at least a 2.5 year old, regardless of points, In WI at least a 3.5 year old, and in PA, at least a 2.5 year old, regardless of points(within the AR's).
In regards to bucks....
*I want age structure.....is that "trophy hunting"?
*I want to see rubs, scrapes, chasing, fighting, etc....is that "trophy hunting"?
*I want to see a natural rut....again, is that "trophy hunting"?
*I want to see the largest, and strongest bucks compete for breeding rights, regardless of points..."trophy hunting"?

I just want a balance herd...you can have little bucks to shoot, leave the big ones for me. Why is a bad thing, that many want to manage for what they want...a little buck, but give others a hard time for wanting to "tweak" the quality for everyone involved?
 

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Part of the reason people feel it "crammed down their throat" is that there are 146 other threads that all discuss trophy hunting + QDM.

QDM can only succeed with education so this ground gets covered just about once a week along with the great hunting opportunities in 49 other states.
 

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Wow.

I was wondering how long the quiet was going to last in this forum.:eek:

What really gets me, is when us pro-QDMers are called "closed -minded" by the anti-QDMers.

I can't understand what they mean, afterall, I use to hunt and practice herd management the way they are currently doing it, yet they're refusing to at least try hunting/herd management the way I do it.

Now why am I close-minded?;)
 

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Hey Jawbreaker,

From your post I would have to say YOUR the one looking down on people shooting little bucks. And by the way....Why does it have to be "a little buck" and not just a buck? Isn't a buck a buck, big or little? That right there tells me YOU want to shoot big bucks aka trophy bucks. I'm not trying to be an @ss about it. Just letting you know how people see a post like this.
 

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hypox,

All of us QDMers want to shoot "mature" bucks. You are the one defining a "big buck" as a "trophy buck".

Granted, many "mature" bucks may reach "trophy" status someday, but that's not always a given.

Having more "mature" bucks in any given deer herd, is a sign of having good herd health.

Larger antlered and more "matured" bucks are a by-product of a properly managed deer herd.

Re-reading jawbreakers thread doesn't give me any indication that he is looking down at anybody. I sense alot of frustration on his part at knowing that many of the younger bucks he has passed up harvesting, have been shot by hunters who basically are just following the rules, but having no inclination as to how their legal harvest may effect the deer herd.

It's all perception.;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hypox,

I don't look down on anyone that hunts legally, but I don't agree with the guys shooting young bucks. This forum is my soap box to put my point of view out to the public. You do not have to agree with it. That is what makes this country so great, WE ALL GET TO HAVE OUR OWN OPINION. Frustrated yes!!!! I am frustrated by passing the young bucks only to have someone else shoot them. I am frustrated by the so called meat hunter that will shoot a young buck but not a doe. I can't understand why a guy that says he could careless about horns and only hunts for meat doesn't shoot a doe instead of a young buck. I understand shooting a young buck is legal and anyone that does is within the law. But what that tells me is that they do not give a darn about the health of the deer herd in Michigan, and that makes them the selfish ones (OMO). Would I be lying if I said I didn't want to shoot a large antlered deer, YES I WOULD BE. The catch is that I want to shoot that large antlered deer out of a herd that is healthy, numbered within the carrying capacity of the land and has a more natural B/D ratio and age structure.

Dan
 

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Originally posted by jawbreaker
Hypox,

I don't look down on anyone that hunts legally, but I don't agree with the guys shooting young bucks. This forum is my soap box to put my point of view out to the public. You do not have to agree with it. That is what makes this country so great, WE ALL GET TO HAVE OUR OWN OPINION. Frustrated yes!!!! I am frustrated by passing the young bucks only to have someone else shoot them. I am frustrated by the so called meat hunter that will shoot a young buck but not a doe. I can't understand why a guy that says he could careless about horns and only hunts for meat doesn't shoot a doe instead of a young buck. I understand shooting a young buck is legal and anyone that does is within the law. But what that tells me is that they do not give a darn about the health of the deer herd in Michigan, and that makes them the selfish ones (OMO). Would I be lying if I said I didn't want to shoot a large antlered deer, YES I WOULD BE. The catch is that I want to shoot that large antlered deer out of a herd that is healthy, numbered within the carrying capacity of the land and has a more natural B/D ratio and age structure.

Dan
I consider myself a "meat hunter". I was not fortunate enough to be drawn for a doe permit this past year, and I hunt public land in the northern lower peninsula. I shot a 6 point buck opening morning. I didn't have the option of shooting a doe, and I love venison...I'm not going to apologize or feel guilty for taking a smaller buck, because I like venison.

I think QDM is great when you can control the situation, on your own property. I just can't afford to pony up the $$ to do that yet.

BTW...the DNR aged my deer and said he was 2.5 yrs old. Probably poor genetics, so I guess I was doing the herd a favor by removing him. ;)
 

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How many guys look down upon guys who want to shoot "big" bucks?

It's almost taboo to be labled as a "trophy" hunter, although those are the guys spending thousands of dollars a year and supporting the "little guy, complete huge habitat management projects, spending countless hours in the woods, have a greater sense of the biological needs of a healthy herd, understand a healthy habitat, are extremely passionate about their love of hunting, and would do anything to preserve the freedom of their hunting heritage.....is that a bad thing? Reminds me of some of those fisherman that spend thousands of dollars and countless hours on the water and are utterly thrilled at the prospect of catching the "big one"...shame on them too. :eek:

Again, lets have both...some can go after the little bucks, but since you don't care, why don't they pass on the big, mature bucks when they have the opportunity, and let me shoot them!;) After all, they are just after the meat, and they can't eat the antlers.
 

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Buddy Lee,

A mature deer is a great asset to the herd, regardless of supposed "inferior" genes. An inferior deer scores 120, instead, of 150, or 130, instead of 180, or 100, instead of 130, but still a great deer when mature.

Asside from that, their was a study that showed many game departments incorrectly age deer over 50% of the time on known aged deer, so bottom line, if it looks like a yearling, acts like a yearling, it is a yearling. But, in the northern 1/2 of the lower, even managed with AR's, you would still have shot a deer that would have met the guidelines of 3 points on a side, the accepted measure of adequate protection for the northern lower.

So, great job!
 

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Originally posted by NorthJeff
Buddy Lee,

A mature deer is a great asset to the herd, regardless of supposed "inferior" genes. An inferior deer scores 120, instead, of 150, or 130, instead of 180, or 100, instead of 130, but still a great deer when mature.

Asside from that, their was a study that showed many game departments incorrectly age deer over 50% of the time on known aged deer, so bottom line, if it looks like a yearling, acts like a yearling, it is a yearling. But, in the northern 1/2 of the lower, even managed with AR's, you would still have shot a deer that would have met the guidelines of 3 points on a side, the accepted measure of adequate protection for the northern lower.

So, great job!
NorthJeff,
Thanks! And don't get me wrong here...I would LOVE to implement at least some of the principles of QDM where I hunt, especially habitat improvement. But I just have to hunt within the bounds of the law, because I hunt on public land and I wasn't lucky enough to draw a doe permit. I would have loved to shoot a doe instead, judging by my deer sightings this year the buck/doe ratio in my area is about 1:44! :D
 

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It's amazing how areas can be so drastically different in deer per square mile, and relative number of doe permits. I can only tell you though, from what I've seen, that if you are a part of a group that monitors population #'s and records sghtings, such as a couple QDM groups based here in the U.P., and present these findings to the DNR in a constructive and professional manner, you can make a difference, like they have, with doe permits.
 

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Originally posted by Buddy Lee
I hunt public land in the northern lower peninsula....


...the DNR aged my deer and said he was 2.5 yrs old. Probably poor genetics,
More than likely it was poor nutrition. Either that or he was a late born fawn that hasn`t caught up to where he should be. If the buck to doe ratio is out of whack many does will be bred late. It may take late born fawns 3 or 4 years to catch up to where they would be if born on time.
 

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My vote is that Buddy's 6 point was a late born fawn. With a buck:doe ratio of around 1:44, the few bucks that are left are probably breeding into January if possible.

This creates a cycle that's hard to break; too many does and few bucks = too many late born fawns.

This in turn means that the male fawns are heading into the winter under weight, which equates to bucks at 18 months of age probably only achieving a spike rack.

Again a vicious cycle.

I can see why it's so easy to claim "bad genetics" as dooming your deer herd in your hunting area.
 

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To be very honest...........I want a TROPHY!! AND QDM to me is allowing the deer to reach a certain age for maximum antler development. Some get into the habitat, some get into the doe to buck pop, but for me I LET THEM GO SAY THEY CAN GROW!!

I love to have my venison and that is why I shoot does, and to also bring the herd to a balance. But to say I want a healthy herd, I have that already!!! I live in SW lower Mich where the ground is rich and full of farm country. They are corn fed deer that are fat and healthy.
 
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