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Back in the day I read Richard Wolter’s book Water Dog. According to him, it’s best to purchase a pup at 49 days.

We’re looking for a Ryman English Setter, most pups are already spoken for with a couple of exceptions. The pups available have great pedigrees however; they are over 12 weeks old.

What, if any, problems are associated with purchasing a pup over 3 months old?

In other words, would you purchase an older pup or wait till spring?

Any and all advice is welcome.
 

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Back in the day I read Richard Wolter’s book Water Dog. According to him, it’s best to purchase a pup at 49 days.

We’re looking for a Ryman English Setter, most pups are already spoken for with a couple of exceptions. The pups available have great pedigrees however; they are over 12 weeks old.

What, if any, problems are associated with purchasing a pup over 3 months old?

In other words, would you purchase an older pup or wait till spring?

Any and all advice is welcome.
Like Jim said,

If that is the pup I want, it is bold and healthy, go for it. Good friend just bought a 16 week old pup that had been well socialized from a reputable hobby breeder and I think to be honest he is happier with the 16 week old then the 8 week old.
 

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I'd want to be sure the pups have been well socialized by then, puppy shots started and wormed, vet checked and documented, walked and played with daily, etc etc. If you don't know what to look for when picking out a puppy that old, then take along someone who does. The time between 8-16 weeks is a very critical period in a pups life.

NB
 

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Getting a pup in the 49 day range is nice because the pup is an information sponge at that age and will learn A LOT very quickly. With that said, you don't need to get them that young, it's just a little helpful. (note, a lot of trainers in the world won't even see your dog until it's a year old)

I got my Pointer at 5 months and have had no problems (he's coming up on a year now).

It's all in how you train them and how well you socialize them (IMO at any age). Fail at those, and the age you get the pup at won't be of much use anyhow.

Worry more about the breeding the pup comes from.
 

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I would concure with the above posts, as long as the pup has been socialized with people you should be okay.
 

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that one comes up every so often. i've bought pups/dogs at all ages from 7-8 weeks to several at 1 1/2 years. after i've had them a while, you cant tell the difference. the oldest dog i got was about 7 yrs. she'd been a kennel bitch all her life and i talked the breeder out of her. we had to run her down to catch her. i took her straight out with me horse camping and she crawled into the bottom of my bag and slept their all night.

just because something was written in a book doesnt make it true.

just a word to the wise, though. i dont know what a "great pedigree" is in a ryman setter as there isnt a trial win among all of them. and i have friends that breed and own them. you are looking at three years before that pup starts pointing birds. i dont think there are any true ryman setters left, mainly they are show dogs bred with the ryman name on them.
 

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Back in the day I read Richard Wolter’s book Water Dog. According to him, it’s best to purchase a pup at 49 days.

We’re looking for a Ryman English Setter, most pups are already spoken for with a couple of exceptions. The pups available have great pedigrees however; they are over 12 weeks old.

What, if any, problems are associated with purchasing a pup over 3 months old?

In other words, would you purchase an older pup or wait till spring?

Any and all advice is welcome.
If you're happy with the parents and the pedigree overall then I wouldn't hesitate. Good age and time to start taking the little ankle nipper for walks in the woods.
Friend of mine is killing sharptails in Montana right now over his yet to be 5 month old Setter pup.

Contrary to what dogwhistle reports my ryman type dog pointed wild birds(Spring woodcock) at 6 months old and was a pretty solid grouse dog by the end of his second season but I took him to Kansas for a week and those ditch parrots set him back a month or two in his grouse education.
If the dog is FDSB registered it's likely that none of the prior generations were show dogs.

Good luck.
 

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I wouldn't fear a 12 week old pup, provided they have all their "ducks in a row" as many have stated (I have some mixed feelings on Wolters book). I once picked up a Setter that was 1 1/2 years old, never trained for birds. It took a little time and effort, but he turned into a wonderful bird dog. Unfortunately, he had been mistreated, I believe, in his former home. He had food aggression, and was a little too possesive of me. After nipping at my little girls, out the door he went. He now hunts with a fella that has no other dogs or children, and the guy is very pleased with him.
I doubt you'd have such a challenge with a 12 week old. Give it a go, and post some pics!
 

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12-weeks old? No problem. In fact, IMO, this is better than getting a "49-day" old pup. Why? You see more of their personality at this age than you do a younger pup. Just make sure you do some of the following (and if anybody else has anything to say that would be great):

Ask the owner not to feed the pup until you get there:
1. While feeding, stick your hand in the bowl
2. While feeding, clap your hands to see if there is any negative reaction

During play:
1. How does it carry itself? Head high? Tail high?
2. Is it independent? Is it inquisitive? Does it stay by your side?

Kenneled:
1. Walk away from the pup in it's crate. Does the pup go crazy and start barking? Does the pup settle down after 10 minutes?

Is it healthy? Shots? Do the owners have kids? etc. etc. etc.

These are just some thoughts but I feel a 12 week is better to evaluate than a 7 for selecting a puppy. Don't be too concerned about the "training" of the pup. There is plenty of time for YOU to do this.
 

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While I believe a pup will bond faster if they come to you earlier, that doesn't mean they won't bond. They will. Especially the Rymans, which are much more sensitive and devoted to people than a lot of the prairie dogs.

I also totally disagree about the Rymans being later-Cody pointed a wing at 5 weeks, his first bird at 4 months, and hasn't missed a bird since. He's now 2 and I'm expecting a full season over him this year. If they have lots of contact with birds, they learn fast. No birds, they don't learn as fast. Rymans DO take longer to "grow up", but that's usually a good thing-they're more dependent on you when they're a bit unsure.

The only dog (also an ES) I ever had that I got a little later that never really bonded real well to me was a mostly field trial bred dog...and that, I'm pretty sure, was his nature, didn't have much, if anything, to do with the age he came to me at. Although, as I told you, I did wonder. I've never seen a Ryman like that.

Mostly, with older pups, I would question why the breeder hasn't been able to sell them all. Most Rymans, as you know, are sold before they're even born. If they're not, it's probably the economy, but it could be something else. I would never buy a pup from anybody at anytime without all the questions being answered to my satisfaction or without a personal inspection of the breeder's operations and the dogs themselves.

Dogwhistle-I don't know of any Rymans that actually have the Ryman name as part of their formal name anymore. If there are any, they're undoubtedly worth a fortune. "Ryman" is used as a descriptive for a certain type of English Setter that hasn't had any show dog blood in them at all, except for the DeCoverly kennel to some degree, for many, many, generations, if they ever had any AKC in them at all.
 

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i'm just telling you what guys i know well and that own and breed them tell me. one is a pro trainer.

and as far as the pedigrees, i'm right on that. there isnt a champiion anywhere, without that a pedigree is just a list of ancestors.

i expected to get a reaction. if you really want to hear other views ask about them on the coverdog board.<G>

Linda, i just thought of something. a few years ago i was showing a young trial bred dog to that breeder and trainer of "rymans". my dog was a son of Wrongway- multiple grouse champion and out of a daughter of Pinecone Max- an all-age(horseback) champion with champions all up his pedigree. he was going on about temperment in the same vein and then he looked down and my dog was wound round his legs like a cat. he said something akin to "forget it" and we opened up a bottle of scotch.
 

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I brought my newest pointer pup home @ 15 weeks and he's integrating well into the household and fitting in very well with my other dogs--he also scent pointed a pigeon at about 20 feet a couple days ago @ around 17 weeks of age. I would agree with the other posters on the early socialization/medical aspects etc.

I'm far from an expert on Ryman's, but I've heard from several sources (including one this weekend who recently did some training with one from a very well known Ryman breeder) that they are super companions but that they can also develop later than many other dogs. I also know of a few that are deadly on grouse.
 

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Why do the rymans take so long to point birds? On a side note I have a field breed ES, that i did not get the pedigree with( my first bird dog). Is their anyway I can find out his pedigree?
 

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Dog, I don't know of anyone with a Ryman who has ever competed in the trials as prairie bred ES's are. A few RGS fun trials, but nothing like the derby circuits. We aren't competitors, generally, just appreciators and hunters. No need to compete, and no interest. Therefore, we don't look for champions in the pedigree, just the names of well-known dogs. You learn which dogs were considered "paragons".

I know that most ES's, no matter what their style of breeding, are very sweet, loving dogs. But the Rymans are ALWAYS like that, whereas the field trial bred dogs aren't necessarily. I know, I owned one for 14 years. He loved to hunt, but he never gave a whit whether I was there or not. He was hunting for himself. He was also "bitchy" as I've heard it termed. In other words, quick to growl, especially as he got older-he was always first to start a fight, even though he knew he could never finish it. And I've seen that a lot in other field trial bred ES's. That's good if you're a competitor, but not always desirable in a companion hunting dog.

"Why do the rymans take so long to point birds?" I don't know, I haven't had that problem. You've got to get them into birds. If you do, you get points.

If you have the formal names of both parents, you can purchase pedigrees through the Field Dog Stud Book.
 

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I'd want to be sure the pups have been well socialized by then, puppy shots started and wormed, vet checked and documented, walked and played with daily, etc etc. If you don't know what to look for when picking out a puppy that old, then take along someone who does. The time between 8-16 weeks is a very critical period in a pups life.

NB
Natty gets to the heart of the question with this post. I did it once myself and I will most likely never do it again. I bought a Pointer that was about 16 weeks old, excellent breeding on paper, long story short he was not well socialized so when he came into his new home it flat overwelmed him and he never recovered.

So buyer beware. If you know the breeder and your confident that they have been well socialized then maybe?? If not I would wait for next spring or wait until these pups get to be old enough to run in the field, not trained but started. Then you can see first hand what they look like. At 12 weeks you have no clue. Just my two cents.

BC
 

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I know that most ES's, no matter what their style of breeding, are very sweet, loving dogs. But the Rymans are ALWAYS like that, whereas the field trial bred dogs aren't necessarily.
Linda, I have to challenge your statement. With the number of field bred setters that I have owned and still own as well as the three that I have rescued so far, I have not found one dog not to be an absolute great companion and sweet loving dog, which loves to be with it's people! Your generalization is not what I have experienced. The dual setter (Ryman, OH, Decoverly, etc.) does not have a corner on the market for great and loving personalities when it come to setters.
 

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Read my statement again. I used the word "most" and "necessarily". I had one that was different, and I've seen, over 30 years of working with setters, others that were different.

And "dual" doesn't really apply to the Rymans these days, since 99% of them are ALL field dog stud book, not AKC, and used for hunting purposes, not show. At least, not in the last 20 years or so.

Bear Creek is right on the money, as was Natty.
 
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