[rlbyfd]

Giving the lake away and possibly a huge expansion to Camp Grayling. Do you think the sportsman are being represented? Do you think the DNR might be bought off or have an agenda not friendly to sportsman?
Getting organized would be a start to fighting this stuff. I thought MUCC was sort of our voice for this. Maybe I’m wrong in that.

 

[SJC]

Giving the lake away and possibly a huge expansion to Camp Grayling. Do you think the sportsman are being represented? Do you think the DNR might be bought off or have an agenda not friendly to sportsman?
Getting organized would be a start to fighting this stuff. I thought MUCC was sort of our voice for this. Maybe I’m wrong in that.

We need to clean house in the department starting at the top. We had a chance to get that going in November and failed. The department is not looking out for us. They are catering more and more to "nonconsumptive" users. People who wander around geocaching are way easier to please than those who want a productive, sustainable and usable resource.
Mucc is one of our only voices. It's so important for everyone who enjoys the outdoors in a consumptive way to be a member. I have been a member since I was young. I haven't always agreed with their actions or lack of, and even accused them of being in bed with the DNR, but they are our best chance to be heard. Most of the people I know who hunt, trap and fish are not members of mucc or any sportsman's group but they still piss and moan.

 

[BuckeyeFootball]

We need to clean house in the department starting at the top. We had a chance to get that going in November and failed. The department is not looking out for us. They are catering more and more to "nonconsumptive" users. People who wander around geocaching are way easier to please than those who want a productive, sustainable and usable resource.
Mucc is one of our only voices. It's so important for everyone who enjoys the outdoors in a consumptive way to be a member. I have been a member since I was young. I haven't always agreed with their actions or lack of, and even accused them of being in bed with the DNR, but they are our best chance to be heard. Most of the people I know who hunt, trap and fish are not members of mucc or any sportsman's group but they still piss and moan.

The current head of the DNR came from MUCC so is he naive, imcompetent, or what? Does he have any clue about the negotiations and who was responsible for appointing the MDNR negotiators? I have a feeling I know who is most to blame but we will wait and see. We also need to FOIA this when its all done.

 

[sportsman98]

Considering two things:
1. He was involved in a screaming match with the CPMR guys back in September.

2. He was recently promoted to the head of EGLE.

Should tell you everything you need to know.

 

[ThreeDogsDown]

Carafino is the scapegoat under the bus. Everyone else is running for the hills.

These guys will live in infamy.


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[BuckeyeFootball]

Carafino is the scapegoat under the bus. Everyone else is running for the hills.

These guys will live in infamy.


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Is he the tribal unit director/coordinator?

 

[ThreeDogsDown]

Yes. The author and salesman of the new decree.


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[ThreeDogsDown]

Not a bad day for fishermen in Federal Court today. Attached is a good summary from the Great Lakes Salmon Initiative (GLSI).

Happy to hear the CPMR got to play ball today.

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[Cork Dust]

There are three points I would raise with the Federal judge overseeing these proceedings, specific to the Soo Bands contentions: !.) The exceeded TAC quotas on lake trout for a sustained interval ( from what I recall several years) that were set within each of the State grid statistical catch management grid districts simply because they disagreed with the hook and line post-catch re;ease mortality vaule that was being used in the Sustainable Fishery Model that set Total Allowable Catch values annually that were the base values prior apportioning the catch between sport and tribal commercial fishers was set at 15%. The Soo Tribe's contention was that the value should be up around 40%, the UPPER Bound Range value scribed via a multi-year study attempting to better estimate sport fishing caught released lake trout mortality that Shawn Sitar conducted on Lake Superior. The median value determined in the study was around 27%, which is what was eventually used in the SF model. Many of you are aware that this resulted in a lowering of the sport fishin creel limit on Grand Traverse Bay. What the court should be made aware of is that the tribal gillnet take during this interval far exceeded what would have been the "corrected target TAC value" using the 27% value. 2.) During the Bay de Noc subsistence netters appeal of their conviction for selling yellow perch and walleye via gang rigging subsistence nets together in violation of subsistence netting regulations for Soo Tribal members, as well as selling these fish illegally to Jensen's Fishery where they were illegally tabulated under by-cath in their commercial nets and sold commercially. the three member appelate court judicial panel asked Tom Gorenflo, Chief CORA biologist for the Soo Band, how many catch reports had been flagged by managment personnel for enforcement unit investigation since the Soo band of fishers joined CORA at its inception in 2000. Mr. Gorenflo's response was-none. This exchange is listed in the court notes for this legal proceeding. The appelate judge panel was not impressed and included a sharp reprimand in their final judgement. 3.) The joint USFWS/MDNR sting that was run roughly twelve years ago using a fake fish wholesale purchase location as well as an informant assisted information line to identify and purchase thousands of pounds of illegally caught and sold Great Lakes fish, from yellow perch, walleye, lake whitefish, lake trout, as well as lake sturgeon over a multi-year period. In the one year follow-up, investigators were able to document 350 tons of illegally caught Great Lakes fish species were caught and sold by tribal fishers, commercial and subsistence users. Since a portion of these sales involved interstate transport of illegal catch these were Lacy Act Violations. Some of the fish were shipped as far abroad as Estonia via Dan's Seafood in Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin, including 38 lake sturgeon, several of whom were hundreds of years old based on their lengths and size. The full investigation results have essentially never seen the light of day via broad media reporting... after some initial coverage by local new outlets in Wisconsin and Michigan. Some of these violations were practiced by Treaty of 1842 tribal fishers, and some of them were documented to be the work of Treaty of 1836 tribal fishers.

When considered as a total set, these three actions do not garner the necessary litmus test results to warrant that the Federal courts should grant the Soo Band fishers total autonomy to conduct their tribal fishing operation in ceded treaty waters of the Great Lakes, particularly when you consider that both their managent and enforcement personnel have failed to due their due diligence via oversight of fishing activities.

To be blunt, I have never understood how a Federal judge would ever decide to apportion the fishery on a fifty:fifty basis, let alone opt to use biomass as the basis of the apportionment of catch when one user group numbers in the tens of thousands of members and the other user group of tribal fisherman numbers a couple handfuls at most...

Operation Fishing for Funds and the Untapped Potential of U.S. Wildlife Whistleblower Laws

WNN obtained exclusive details on the only recent whistleblower reward paid by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

whistleblowersblog.org

 

[12riverfish]

Thanks Cork Dust. I found that very enlightening!

 

[Cork Dust]

I finally found a piece of Consent Decree negotiations update reporting that actually contains some specifics that document that this gear was not approved for use in the indescriminant manner implied by several posters. The CD that four of the CORA managed tribes approved has restriction languages that sets SEASONAL Limits, limits on HOW and at What Depth the newly authorizied large mesh BOTTOM gill nets can be fished, as well as net size restrictions.

Michigan, native tribes reach new Great Lakes fishing deal

TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. (AP) — Four Native American tribes have agreed with Michigan and federal officials on a revised fishing policy for parts of three of the Great Lakes, officials said Monday. The tentative deal involves contentious issues for groups wanting shares of a valuable resource as...

apnews.com

 

[ThreeDogsDown]

I finally found a piece of Consent Decree negotiations update reporting that actually contains some specifics that document that this gear was not approved for use in the indescriminant manner implied by several posters. The CD that four of the CORA managed tribes approved has restriction languages that sets SEASONAL Limits, limits on HOW and at What Depth the newly authorizied large mesh BOTTOM gill nets can be fished, as well as net size restrictions.

Michigan, native tribes reach new Great Lakes fishing deal

TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. (AP) — Four Native American tribes have agreed with Michigan and federal officials on a revised fishing policy for parts of three of the Great Lakes, officials said Monday. The tentative deal involves contentious issues for groups wanting shares of a valuable resource as...

apnews.com

Seasonal limits? There are no enforcement measures in place, unless those new 100 Conservation Officers come with boats and scuba gear to enforce “how” and “what depth” and “length”.

Season limits? Why is this alleged new reporting system a secret between the USFWS and the “Tribal Managers?” Does this smell like the Feds and the Tribes are teamed up and hiding it from the public? Daily-take-weights should be posted on the DNR website every time there is a boat of fish hitting the unloading boat ramp, verified by a Conservation Officer with a scale.

Without enforcement, gill nets are kill nets and they are out there to catch a load. Please, Don’t start drinking the cool aid mixed up from Carafino.

He wants us to believe that gill nets up and around the coast of Lake Michigan will have no impact on the fishery, and “State biologists agree”. Yeah they do…to keep their job.

Remember, “state biologists agree” we were
Critically low on alewife (massive windrows onshore and in the water), for instance.


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[ThreeDogsDown]

reel2reel facebook live tonight. 730pm. The DNR salesman and author of the consent decree is doing a live Q&A. Should be gut wrenching.


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[rlbyfd]

reel2reel facebook live tonight. 730pm. The DNR salesman and author of the consent decree is doing a live Q&A. Should be gut wrenching.


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I listened to most of the Live last night. Interesting to say the least. It sounds like the data compiled should improve, and thats a good thing. Other than that, it doesn't sound good for the sport fishing/recreational fishery. It also sounded like we could start to see daily limits fluctuate quite a bit year to year based on the data that they come up with.
The DNR does not sound like a group that represents its stakeholders. They sound like a group that is intimidated and controlled by someone else. The gentleman speaking (Dave I think) sounded like a well seasoned politician. I get the sense the Feds are assisting the tribes with this. They are getting their money from somewhere other than the casinos. I still can't reconcile how this arrangement is the way it is. Maybe it all comes down to history and what occurred long ago. I certainly wont go down that path.
If the Soo tribe obtains autonomy all bets are off for the future of our fishery here in Michigan. We have to be engaged and involved. Maybe contacting our federal representatives. Is there a single organization devoted to representing us on this issue? We may not have the funding, but we have the numbers by a mile. I suspect we could get some attention if we get organized.

 

[BigWoods Bob]

I listened to most of the Live last night. Interesting to say the least. It sounds like the data compiled should improve, and thats a good thing. Other than that, it doesn't sound good for the sport fishing/recreational fishery. It also sounded like we could start to see daily limits fluctuate quite a bit year to year based on the data that they come up with.
The DNR does not sound like a group that represents its stakeholders. They sound like a group that is intimidated and controlled by someone else. The gentleman speaking (Dave I think) sounded like a well seasoned politician. I get the sense the Feds are assisting the tribes with this. They are getting their money from somewhere other than the casinos. I still can't reconcile how this arrangement is the way it is. Maybe it all comes down to history and what occurred long ago. I certainly wont go down that path.
If the Soo tribe obtains autonomy all bets are off for the future of our fishery here in Michigan. We have to be engaged and involved. Maybe contacting our federal representatives. Is there a single organization devoted to representing us on this issue? We may not have the funding, but we have the numbers by a mile. I suspect we could get some attention if we get organized.

All good points. I posted this in another forum, but I'll also post it here, as it directly relates:

"I agree with what you said in this post, but what I took from the Q&A last night, was that essentially, the Tribes "can and have had since the 1980's" the ability to fish gill nets. It's settled Law via the Treaty and Courts....i.e., there is Zero the MDNR can do about it legally.

Basically it sounds like the best we can hope for, is to negotiate our "best deal", given the reality of the situation, as if we let the Courts "impose" something, we might really not like what we get.

Given that the Soo Tribe is refusing to be a party to the CD, and is insisting on fishing how they want, with what they want, where they want (they are calling it "Self Regulation"), depending on how the Judge rules, we might just see the whole CD fall apart....then we REALLY might not like the outcome.

I can't imagine any Sports fisherman "likes" what the CD has in it....That said, often a negotiated "Deal", is better than "imposed" Regulation, especially when the other side holds the better cards."

The other thing to remember, is that in this day and age of "Wokeism"...we are extremely unlikely to get much support from the mainstream public on this matter.

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[fishgtbay]

rlbyfd, ,,,yes we have an organization that is out there representing "us" The Coalition to Protect Michigan Resources, the attorney for them will be the next guest on Reel to Reel on their next podcast, his name is Steve Shultz, you want to talk to a man that represents us,....that's Steve, he not only represents us he's about saving the future of the fishery based on science!

 

[rlbyfd]

rlbyfd, ,,,yes we have an organization that is out there representing "us" The Coalition to Protect Michigan Resources, the attorney for them will be the next guest on Reel to Reel on their next podcast, his name is Steve Shultz, you want to talk to a man that represents us,....that's Steve, he not only represents us he's about saving the future of the fishery based on science!

Nice. I would love to know who’s funding the other side. That would probably give us our answers on where this eventually ends up.

 

[ThreeDogsDown]

The CPMR is severely outgunned. Going up against Goliath.

Feds and the Tribes (same team in my book) have never ending money.

The State DNR (teammates with the Feds and the Tribes)are second in line for legal backing.

If any of them had to pay for their own hotels, gas and chow like the CPMR lawyers, this fight would have been fair and over, with with a consensual agreement.


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[fishgtbay]

Reel to Reel Outdoors will be having Steve Shultz on their Live Podcast tomorrow 12/22/2022 at 7:30 pm, he's the attorney for the Coalition To Protect Michigan Resources, this is an episode you won't want to miss.

 

[ThreeDogsDown]

Long Lake Grocery is now accepting registrations for Interlochness #7. Come on out and get signed up.

New for this year is a raffle ticket with your registration, for a chance to win cash prizes.

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