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The biggest difference between myself and some others here is that I think of other hunters and their experience. Many guys here can't/won't think beyond their own hunt.
And that was my opinion of you until recently..

And if you choose to hunt public land why do you pound your chest and make it sound like burden?

And if your concerned about other pubic land hunters good experiences maybe your argument shouldn't be against a Saturday opener but maybe no sales of alcohol the day prior to the opener:lol:...

Sorry I am not buying your 15th opener makes for a better experience arguement..
 

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A prolific poster responds:

"Because I can hunt private, does that mean that I shouldn't care about a good experience for the public land hunter?"

It doesn't appear the poster's concerns lie with the common "public land hunter"....unless, of course, he is referring only to himself as the entitled 'public land hunter' who can always shrewdly wrangle his way to Opening Day no matter which day it falls.

His earlier post most assuredly smacks of elitism and a disdain for the fellows who may only be able to hunt on weekends.

If the shoe fits Justin---or more accurately, if both goodytwoshoes fit.....wear 'em.
More people now work weekends than at any time in my life. I would say that if a Saturday opener was ever going to help, it's long gone.
 

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Do you have a problem comprehending? Go back a few posts. I own land and hunt both public and private.
The fact that you aren't exclusively a freerider (if that is even true) is totally irrelevant.

I can see the type that you are.
You really should be focusing on your own behavior. Using government to provide yourself with bennies at the expense of others is typical of freeriders. You've recently defended special privileges that violate the rights of landowners (hound recovery), reduction of hunting opportunities to get bigger racks in the guise of "herd management" and now reduction of hunters where you want to hunt in the guise of "hunt quality control". You can get all three results by coughing up the cash for them, but you take the freerider route.
 

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More people now work weekends than at any time in my life. I would say that if a Saturday opener was ever going to help, it's long gone.
That finally sounds like an attempt at economic justification, but it doesn't justify the 15th and it's not backed up by data. I suspect the majority of hunters work Mo-Fr and I'm sure the majority of students are at least supposed to be in school Mo-Fr. You really don't have a credible case.
 

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I don't really know where you get this, a face to face conversation would prove otherwise I'm sure.
maybe so

But all i have are your post regarding public land and how others should hunt it to understand the task you have...sorry I'm not big on multi quoting multiple threads

Just the impression I get from what you put on the Internet, I am sure it goes both ways.
 

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The fact that you aren't exclusively a freerider (if that is even true) is totally irrelevant.



You really should be focusing on your own behavior. Using government to provide yourself with bennies at the expense of others is typical of freeriders. You've recently defended special privileges that violate the rights of landowners (hound recovery), reduction of hunting opportunities to get bigger racks in the guise of "herd management" and now reduction of hunters where you want to hunt in the guise of "hunt quality control". You can get all three results by coughing up the cash for them, but you take the freerider route.
You really do have a problem with comprehension. You are totally wrong on all three accounts. It's funny how you deem things irrelevant after you bring those thing up.:lol: I pay for those public lands just like you do so I don't get this"freerider" crap that you spew.
 

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That finally sounds like an attempt at economic justification, but it doesn't justify the 15th and it's not backed up by data. I suspect the majority of hunters work Mo-Fr and I'm sure the majority of students are at least supposed to be in school Mo-Fr. You really don't have a credible case.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post this data you are referring to! You've used the word selfish and dishonest toward everyone that is against moving the opener so nows your turn to SHOW your honesty by supplying this data and to demonstrate why going against 84% of the hunting communities wishes is somehow UNselfish.
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Weekend openers on public land are insane. You spend more time watching for people and flying lead then you do hunting for the one 3 legged spike that flies past you frothing at the mouth exhausted

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Michi
Do you know how that question was asked?
Just wondering if was asked do you support the 15th over a Saturday opener or was it just a do you support the 15th opener...

I think we all agree the the results are related to the way the question was asked...

I just have a hard time believing that only 16% of hunters support a guaranteed 3 weekends of firearm hunting with a Saturday opener.
 

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You really do have a problem with comprehension. You are totally wrong on all three accounts.
So you didn't defend a right to retrieve your dog from private property?

And you didn't seek support for a OBR through zone specific regulation that would implement a OBR?

And you're not trying to limit the number of hunters on public land during some years by opposing a Saturday opener?

I pay for those public lands just like you do so I don't get this"freerider" crap that you spew.
We all pay for the public lands, but some people have reduced opportunity to use them as a result of a policy you support. That's freeriding to get a better experience from those lands at the expense of others.
 

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So you didn't defend a right to retrieve your dog from private property?

And you didn't seek support for a OBR through zone specific regulation that would implement a OBR?

And you're not trying to limit the number of hunters on public land during some years by opposing a Saturday opener?



We all pay for the public lands, but some people have reduced opportunity to use them as a result of a policy you support. That's freeriding to get a better experience from those lands at the expense of others.
1. My right to retrieve my dog from private land is legal. For those repeat offenders that have been asked not to retrieve I said "prosecute them". Nowhere did I support trespassing.
2. I support a zone specific tag. That is not support for a OBR, unless the DNR decides that is what's best for that particular zone.
3. I don't support a change for many reasons, none of which you agree with and that's fine. I don't agree with your reasons for a change. Simple as that.
 

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PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post this data you are referring to!
There's no need to. I've only pointed out that he doesn't have the data to back up his claims after admitting that I don't have the data to prove that a Saturday opener will help.

You've used the word selfish and dishonest toward everyone that is against moving the opener
Wrong. I've only pointed out that selfish motives have been displayed by those who displayed them and that dishonest tactics have been used by some to avoid addressing the issue of which choice would be better for the state and the future of hunting here. You're doing that now by trying to paint me as dishonest and selfish instead of addressing the issue. I've presented an economic case. You haven't. I've explained why economics is important. You've deflected. You keep harping about the popularity of a choice but popularity doesn't make a bad policy good.

so nows your turn to SHOW your honesty by supplying this data and to demonstrate why going against 84% of the hunting communities wishes is somehow UNselfish.
If it's selfish to want a strong economy, a greater competitive posture for the state and greater opportunity for more hunters to hunt more often, then I'm selfish. I don't have a problem with that, because I'm pretty sure that many more people would benefit from my selfishness than yours.

If you can convince me that the 15th will provide those benefits then I'll support the 15th. It just doesn't seem reasonable to expect the 15th to provide those benefits and no supporter of the 15th has made such a case. The case for Saturday is based on a reasonable belief that more people will be available to hunt on Saturday and gun hunters will favor hunting on the opener over any other day. That means more hunters would do more hunting and that translates to more economic activity through hunting. The case for a split opener is that it will increase the desirability of two days by giving both of them the opener advantage that I've already assumed appeals to many hunters. You're welcome to disagree with those assumptions but if you want to use that disagreement in support of the something else, you have to present a convincing argument for the something else or convincing arguments against the assumptions. Since the arguments against the assumptions don't seem reasonable and there is a complete lack of convincing arguments for the alternative, the lack of facts in support of the alternative is relevant.

I'm still awaiting your economic case for the 15th. In the meantime I'll just assume you have none and I'll continue to support the most reasonable case presented.
 

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1. My right to retrieve my dog from private land is legal.
Irrelevant. It is a freerider law that allows you to use private land without permission. You defended it.

2. I support a zone specific tag. That is not support for a OBR, unless the DNR decides that is what's best for that particular zone.
You can try to deny what your intent was, but your goal was to obtain zone specific buck management under the guise of herd management. If my belief that you wanted bigger racks from such management was "totally wrong", feel free to start a new thread explaining what your goal from buck management really was. All I saw from your responses was opposition to any reform that would produce zone specific tags but still allow two bucks annually from instate.

3. I don't support a change for many reasons, none of which you agree with and that's fine. I don't agree with your reasons for a change. Simple as that.
Here's the question asked:

And you're not trying to limit the number of hunters on public land during some years by opposing a Saturday opener?

Your answer was evasive. You are trying to limit the number of hunters on public land during some years by opposing a Saturday opener. You might have other reasons, or maybe other excuses, but my statement was not "totally wrong".
 

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Weekend openers on public land are insane. You spend more time watching for people and flying lead then you do hunting for the one 3 legged spike that flies past you frothing at the mouth exhausted
Sounds like something that would promote more economic activity through leasing and purchasing of land to me. Good for the state's economy. Still allows the free use of state land to those who can't afford better. Still gives students and those who can't get weekdays off work more opportunity to hunt.
 

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Irrelevant. It is a freerider law that allows you to use private land without permission. You defended it.



You can try to deny what your intent was, but your goal was to obtain zone specific buck management under the guise of herd management. If my belief that you wanted bigger racks from such management was "totally wrong", feel free to start a new thread explaining what your goal from buck management really was. All I saw from your responses was opposition to any reform that would produce zone specific tags but still allow two bucks annually from instate.



Here's the question asked:

And you're not trying to limit the number of hunters on public land during some years by opposing a Saturday opener?

Your answer was evasive. You are trying to limit the number of hunters on public land during some years by opposing a Saturday opener. You might have other reasons, or maybe other excuses, but my statement was not "totally wrong".
1. A "freerider law":lol: Good God man, get a grip. If crossing a fenceline unarmed, to snap a leash on my beagle is using your land, you have a serious problem.
2. I don't have any idea what you are talking about when you speak of my intent. Feel free to quote me on "buck" management. You obviously didn't understand my plan, or the reasons for it at all.
3. There are just as many hunters around me on a weekday opener as on a weekend opener. Those "weekday" hunters are also around longer.
4. I didn't realize that deer hunting existed to support northern Michigan business and private landowners.:rolleyes:
 

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Bambicidal,

I think that we disagree from the onset. I am not for using hunting seasons to cure the state's woes.

I do however like Justin's question about providing the data to back up your claims...or are we again going to rely on BM logic?....
 

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Many of us, perhaps most of us, feel and believe that the firearm deer season "opener" is a special day. These emotions are entrenched no matter which the day of the week for the opener falls on. What's "special" about the opener is the packing, the travel, the regalia, tradition, revelry, practice, scouting, arrivals and departures and alas, participation in pursuit of the almighty whitetail deer. Perhaps even, if one is so lucky, taking a large antlered buck.

These feelings, these emotions, these experiences, these accomplishments, are not, and will not be altered by having the day that the firearm "opener" change from a static November 15 to some prescribed Saturday that coincides closely to November 15. All of the aforementioned features and benefits surrounding this "event' remain the same, irrespective of the day of the week. All of this is a subjective experience, no matter what fricking day of the week it occurs. A child's warm "teddy bear”, if you will.

The bottom line is that the State of Michigan is in the business of providing opportunity. Not "limited” opportunity. Not "moderate" opportunity. Not even "great" opportunity.

Rather, the State of Michigan is in the business of providing one thing, and one thing only. And, that is "MAXIMUM" opportunity to the population at large, so long at it does not have a negative effect upon the resource. Frankly, it is the only speed they know: "pedal to the metal, baby!" This is their job, their obligation and frankly, as the people in charge...their duty under the law.

Now, for some of you, "maximum opportunity" gives you the jitters. That's because "maximum" opportunity equates to more people essentially competing for the same prize.
I.E.; more people = less chance versus, fewer people = greater chance.

From the State of Michigan’s' perspective, (and mine) they could give a rat's *** about the "prize" and your ability to capture it. The only thing they care about is, again, making sure that if the opportunity exists, to insure that it is open and available to any and all to the MAXIMUM degree, so long as it does not have a negative effect upon the resource. To be totally honest, it is the only dogmatic principal surrounding communism that I adhere to (Kyrie, eleison).
 

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The bottom line is that the State of Michigan is in the business of providing opportunity. Not "limited” opportunity. Not "moderate" opportunity. Not even "great" opportunity.
The opportunity is there, for everyone, as it is. It's there on a rotation if nothing else. A permanent day, be it Sat. or Thurs. will change that. Some people work every Sat. What about them? I still believe that a split opener is the best solution. With zone specific tags.
 

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I think it is fair to say that a significant number of hunters want to keep the 15th in order to reduce competition. It is sad DNR administration can't acknowledge or recognize this when the idea of a Saturday opener is discussed, regardless of what happens in the future. All they want to talk about is tradition.
 
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