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Since when does a fixed date cause scheduling conflicts?
Read it again. I said scheduling instability.

Do you have a difficult time scheduling Christmas every year? How about the 4th of July?
Those are holidays that employers recognize, but let's be clear about this. I can always hunt the opener. I'm more interested in whether we receive the economic benefit from the guy who can't and who decides to sit in front of the TV and watch football games for the next two weekends.

Or should we change those to Saturdays as well?
Well, there are some holidays that are always scheduled on Monday so that we'll have long weekends. Labor Day and Memorial Day. And Thanksgiving is always on a Thursday. So we have date specific scheduling and day-of-week specific scheduling of holidays. I can't see what's so holy about St. Antler's Day being on the 15th.

As for answering your questions I've done so many times.
You might think so, but I requested honest and relevant answers.

I can't help it if you don't like the answers. But once again here is the moost relevant answer- 84% of hunters support opening firearms season on Nov 15th.
If 51% of hunters became convinced that a Saturday opener with a split opener for the 1 or 2 northern zones was better, would that magically cause you to support them? Since hunters aren't the only stakeholders in our economy, how about if it was only 51% of voters?
 

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84% is once again an OVERWHELMING amount of support. It may be the single greatest agreement you will ever find in the hunting community. To want to go against that many hunters for unsupported reasons is unthinkable and has me wondering what your motives would be to upset that many people. It certainly isnt economics because as has been dmonstrated by more than just me that just wouldnt be the case with a Saturday opener. It cant be more participants because harvest reports back up what Russ Mason of the DNR states that Thursdays bring the most out. So whatever it might be good luck with your crusade. Your gonna need it.
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84% is once again an OVERWHELMING amount of support. It may be the single greatest agreement you will ever find in the hunting community. To want to go against that many hunters for unsupported reasons is unthinkable and has me wondering what your motives would be to upset that many people.
I don't think they would be all that upset.

It certainly isnt economics because as has been dmonstrated by more than just me that just wouldnt be the case with a Saturday opener.
Where has it been "demonstrated". At best it has been alleged. And was a split opener offered in this poll?

It cant be more participants because harvest reports back up what Russ Mason of the DNR states that Thursdays bring the most out.
So, would you support a Thursday opener if 51% of hunters supported it? Some honest and relevant answers would be appreciated.
 

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Ya...I'd like to learn the "why" also. Might be educational.

Also...I think Wisconson does Saturdays. Why didn't they switch?
Read Swampbuck's reply!
 

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Not sure how to be more clear. I am one of the 84% that supports Nov 15th. I gave you a plethora of reasons. If you dont feel they are valid that isnt my issue. Sorry.
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Not sure how to be more clear. I am one of the 84% that supports Nov 15th. I gave you a plethora of reasons. If you dont feel they are valid that isnt my issue. Sorry.
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I just don't see what's relevant about being in the majority. You imply that it makes your position the more reasonable, but that's clearly not the case. You claim that Thursday would be better than Saturday, but you won't support Thursday even if the majority does, so clearly, being in the majority is irrelevant. And really, this would be a matter for all the voters, not just the hunters and you can't support a claim that hunters would stop hunting or spend less if Saturday or Thursday became the opener. So the fact that a majority of hunters supports the 15th has no bearing on which date would be better for the state, which is the responsibility of all the voters.

I think if a Saturday or Thursday opener got slipped into a package of economic reforms, many hunters would stupidly try to shoot down the whole package no matter how much economic damage it would do. And why would they do that? Just because so many of them can be lead around by their emotions or by their desire for "more for me".

It's no wonder Michigan can't compete with other states. Too many hunters here happily ignore the fact that they could be part of the solution to the states economic woes and consequently to their own financial woes. There's a strong selfish socialist streak running through Michigan's hunter community. Everybody wants the other guy to do all the sacrificing and is willing to use the government to make sure that happens even if what they're really doing is naively driving the state further into the hole. I can't blame the investors who look elsewhere to make money one bit.
 

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Read Swampbuck's reply!
I don't see the relevance. Can you be more clear or more specific or whatever it takes to connect the dots? If Thursday is the best day, why don't we make it Thursday instead of the 15th? Or is it just to exclude some hunters from your neck of the woods during some years?
 

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All you seem to be looking for is someone to agree with you and when they don't you attack their position. The fact of the matter is that we don't need a reason to want the 15th because we already have it. Instead of questioning the motives of 84% of the hunting community why don't you present your case with some facts to back you up.
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All you seem to be looking for is someone to agree with you and when they don't you attack their position. The fact of the matter is that we don't need a reason to want the 15th because we already have it. Instead of questioning the motives of 84% of the hunting community why don't you present your case with some facts to back you up.
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Riva and I have presented our cases with reasoning. Since we don't have a crystal ball to see into the future with, facts about what would happen are in short supply, but that doesn't mean that maintaining the status quo is the smart thing to do. Trying something new when we're faced with declining hunter numbers, an uncompetitive economy, high unemployment, low property value growth, etc. is something people should consider, unless they have some particular reason for wanting the state to continue circling the drain. What we've suggested would cost little, risk little, and possibly return much. We could just stay silent and let people like you blather on without challenging you to take responsibility for your positions, but where's the fun in that. :lol:
 

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What you have presented is an unwarranted suggestion for change that isn't supported by 84% of the hunting community. You have presented not one fact to bolster your position but merely suppositions and theories without basis. If this is how you plan on presenting your case to a sponsoring Congressman you better bring a hefty campaign donation along with it. Your gonna need it. And for what its worth, Riva and I have fought sidee by side on issues that have had an uphill battle. He knows as well as I do that you better have some cold hard facts to back you up if you are seriously going to take on an issue of this magnitude. And with all due respect, you sir are extremely underequipped at the moment for anyone to take you all too seriously.
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What you have presented is an unwarranted suggestion for change that isn't supported by 84% of the hunting community. You have presented not one fact to bolster your position but merely suppositions and theories without basis.
I don't believe there are any facts that could sway you. The basis of these theories and suppositions is knowledge of human nature. When people do as you have done, they are often attempting to protect a special "entitlement" that they get from the status quo or from the reform they support. If that were not the case, they would not be pretending irrelevant things are relevant and vice-versa.

If this is how you plan on presenting your case to a sponsoring Congressman you better bring a hefty campaign donation along with it.
Where did you get the totally ridiculous idea that I would be presenting anything to a politician? I am only presenting the weakness of your case for support for the 15th and the strength of my case for supporting a fixed day of the week and a split opener. You're going to cling to your weak but popular case and suffer some consequences for that whether you recognize them or not, but at least now you've had to endure some cognitive dissonance because you've been confronted with how weak, unsupportable and reasonless your case really is. In the meantime, I've had a lot of fun showing you that the tactics you use to defend your position are not honest or not relevant.

The case for change is easier when disgust with the status quo gets high enough. Showing that the case for the status quo is presented by those who use dishonest or irrelevant tactics and arguments helps to build that disgust. I can be patient. There's no real skin off my nose if the status quo remains for the rest of my life. I can be as selfish as those who cling to the status quo and not worry about it hurting the economic prospects of the children and grandchildren that I don't have. The rest of you will no doubt blame someone else for the unemployment your descendants face and the uncompetitiveness of the state, because avoiding taking responsibility is part of the "more for me" mindset. But your kids and grandkids will still move away and your investments in houses and land will still wallow and it will still be your fault whether you recognize it or not. Thanks for all the fun you've provided. :)
 

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All that from a Nov 15th opener? And to think I thought there were only Four horseman of the Apocolypse. Now I can plainly see there were 5 and he rode a striped horse. Lol
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All that from a Nov 15th opener?
No, all that from an electorate that has a mindset that says, "I don't need an economic justification for my position because a lot of other people who can't produce an economic justification agree with me. Oh and it's my birthday and it provides variety which I still don't have an economic case for. Oh, and that's the way we've done it for as long as i can remember."

That really is the totality of your justification for sticking with Nov. 15th. Agreed? (Go ahead and give an honest and relevant answer to that question. I dare ya.) ;)
 

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Current figures do not show that big of a disparity due to when a opener falls on. All you have to do is check firearm hunter numbers in each of the last 10 yrs to understand that. Compare them to the number of overall hunters and you'll see that years with a Saturday firearms opener isn't even the year with most participants. If memory serves its either a Wed or Thurs.
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I would tend to agree based on personal observation. We hunt state land in the lower, more densely populated area. We have found that when it opens mid-week, more people travel up north, but if it opens near a weekend, they simply stay close to home and hunt down state.
 

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Riva and I have presented our cases with reasoning. Since we don't have a crystal ball to see into the future with, facts about what would happen are in short supply, but that doesn't mean that maintaining the status quo is the smart thing to do. Trying something new when we're faced with declining hunter numbers, an uncompetitive economy, high unemployment, low property value growth, etc. is something people should consider, unless they have some particular reason for wanting the state to continue circling the drain. What we've suggested would cost little, risk little, and possibly return much. We could just stay silent and let people like you blather on without challenging you to take responsibility for your positions, but where's the fun in that. :lol:

Bambidical....

What happens if your reasoning is wrong? What if having a Saturday opener has an adverse affect on the number of hunters going into the woods?....Remember, there are some with other commitments such as kids sports activities or single parents that have their kids on the weekends. Those guys may not want to change the opener. Could your logic simply be logical because it makes sense to you? (Can't wait to see that line requoted on me.... :lol:) The numbers that have been talked about, to the best of my understanding, still say that hunters want a November 15th opener.
 

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"Making memories from an activity during a moment in time, makes a tradition, not a day on the calendar"

84%:lol: wonder how that question was asked..

Wonder what the results would be if that same group were asked "Would you enjoy a guaranteed 3 weekends of firearm hunting every season?"
 

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Bambidical....

What happens if your reasoning is wrong?
Not much. The issue here is that two (or more) economic cases should be compared. Nobody (you included) has offered an economic case for the 15th. Two guys have hinted at an economic case for a Thursday opener and I would be happy to go with that (or any other day of the week) if that economic case is fleshed out and seems more convincing. All of the advocates of the 15th (you included) have ignored the split opener, which would attract people up north one week before the southern opener. So what I'm seeing is that economics, which this state can ill afford to ignore, is not being given the consideration it should be by those who will suffer the consequences of ignoring it.

What if having a Saturday opener has an adverse affect on the number of hunters going into the woods?
Without a crystal ball, there's no way to know. Maybe some other day of the week would be better. I'd like to see a case for that. But in the absence of an economic case more convincing than "because some bureacrat said something that I like", I think it makes sense to dig into the support for the 15th and see what's really behind it. It looks like protectionism to me.

Could your logic simply be logical because it makes sense to you?
I would like to see actual logic for all of the options. I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing bogusities masquerading as logic. I'm offering reasons why more hunters might be able to participate (Saturday) and reasons why more hunters might travel (split opener and weekend trip). What are the economic reasons for the 15th?

The numbers that have been talked about, to the best of my understanding, still say that hunters want a November 15th opener.
Totally irrelevant, except as a probably misplaced expression of political clout.
 

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There is no need to worry about opening day of firearms season changing. All the cash strapped DNR has to do is look at every one of their polls on the subject. The results always show that moving it to another day is not what a majority of Michigan want. St. Antlers day will remain November 15th for along time in the future.
 

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There is no need to worry about opening day of firearms season changing. All the cash strapped DNR has to do is look at every one of their polls on the subject. The results always show that moving it to another day is not what a majority of Michigan want. St. Antlers day will remain November 15th for along time in the future.
You forgot to add "no matter how stupid and selfish that might be." :lol:
 
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