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· Tornado Jim
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Folks...I'm sorry for all the crud....this is the only forum in the nation where a couple folks try so hard to discredit me. I can take a lot but I'm only human and after awhile I get sick of their inane nonsense.
Who has tried to discredit you on this forum?

I for one agree with a huge proportion of what you have to say, and have praised you as being a real asset to these forums. I learned much from this particular thread, especially in regards to your ideas about planting and growing and tending to oaks, and other threads where you have taught me a lot about food plotting.

I simply disagree with some of what you have to say, and some of the techniques you are teaching. My comments have been directed only to issues related to deer behavior and hinge cutting and the like. How that is interpreted as discrediting you is beyond me.

This is a public forum. If you post rather strongly worded comments about subjects like individual buck bedding, how to hinge cut, bedding preferences, and the like, you can fully expect people offering different opinions. I certainly don't think you should characterize a different point of view as "inane nonsense." If I am wrong, let's have a discussion about it. If you don't want to have a discussion, I recommend writing a blog or a book where you can control the responses. In the meantime, if you make what are clearly provocative statements on a public forum, you can expect people to differ with you. If they get personal, the mods should step in and put a stop to it.
 

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The title of this thread is not Creating Natural Forage and Cover for Micro Managers. If you want to cover that aspect then start a thread on the topic. Personally, I don't care anymore what direction or where the deer lay in the bedding area. I don't care if they lay under an overhanging branch or hinge, I don't care if they lay beside a stump or log. I do care if they have cover to lay in and feel safe without human intrusion and natural forage to eat. Hence the title of the thread: "Natural Forage and Cover".

This thread is for people that for whatever reason don't buy into the TL micro manager way to do things. If you want to do things the TL way, knock yourself out. There are plenty of threads explaining the techniques...or lack thereof. Why are some people constantly trying to push TL concepts onto these threads. There are other widely accepted ways to build bedding and cover for those that don't want to spend money to learn how. We are not micro managing in this thread. We are creating hinge cut areas for "cover and natural forage".
 

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Who has tried to discredit you on this forum?

I for one agree with a huge proportion of what you have to say, and have praised you as being a real asset to these forums. I learned much from this particular thread, especially in regards to your ideas about planting and growing and tending to oaks, and other threads where you have taught me a lot about food plotting.

I simply disagree with some of what you have to say, and some of the techniques you are teaching. My comments have been directed only to issues related to deer behavior and hinge cutting and the like. How that is interpreted as discrediting you is beyond me.

This is a public forum. If you post rather strongly worded comments about subjects like individual buck bedding, how to hinge cut, bedding preferences, and the like, you can fully expect people offering different opinions. I certainly don't think you should characterize a different point of view as "inane nonsense." If I am wrong, let's have a discussion about it. If you don't want to have a discussion, I recommend writing a blog or a book where you can control the responses. In the meantime, if you make what are clearly provocative statements on a public forum, you can expect people to differ with you. If they get personal, the mods should step in and put a stop to it.
Well, a lot of us read the Michigan vs other states threads and the TL disciples showed their colors in that thread. Not much habitat content after a couple posts, you and your ilk went beyond the call of duty and started attacking character. And now you're working very hard to get the lock tossed on this thread. I appreciate dbltree sharing his info and attempting to raise the level of info shared. If you and crew are successful in getting dbltree silenced, too bad for this place, it will slip back to the bottom of the barrel as far as content and information goes. Fortunately, there are much better forums available for habitat and dbltree's wealth of info can be read there. And for all the info you've shared? Well from your own words anyone is just an a few hours, $800 dollars and a big glass of koolaid away from learning that. Can't learn to be a surgeon on the internet, we've already established that in this thread, but apparently we all can be experts after the adult equivilent of a grade school field trip, complete with walk in the park in just one short afternoon. :lol:
 

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The title of this thread is not Creating Natural Forage and Cover for Micro Managers. If you want to cover that aspect then start a thread on the topic. Personally, I don't care anymore what direction or where the deer lay in the bedding area. I don't care if they lay under an overhanging branch or hinge, I don't care if they lay beside a stump or log. I do care if they have cover to lay in and feel safe without human intrusion and natural forage to eat. Hence the title of the thread: "Natural Forage and Cover".

This thread is for people that for whatever reason don't buy into the TL micro manager way to do things. If you want to do things the TL way, knock yourself out. There are plenty of threads explaining the techniques...or lack thereof. Why are some people constantly trying to push TL concepts onto these threads. There are other widely accepted ways to build bedding and cover for those that don't want to spend money to learn how. We are not micro managing in this thread. We are creating hinge cut areas for "cover and natural forage".
Cool!
 

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I don't want to assume everyone knows what it was I was offering in the pics I posted earlier in this thread, so here is some clarification.
Big T
 

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· Tornado Jim
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:yeahthat: ... most of the time. Jim did take the time to post some good information on the dynamics of cutting larger trees at one point. This broken record of "you're doing it wrong" in regards to beds, but never offering any value aside from urging people to set a goal of saving $800 to be told, is annoying as hell.

DblTree has posted some decent information on beds.

Bishs has posted some thoughts with regards to beds.

NorthJeff has posted some good information and pictures about beds.

Bioactive just tells every to spend $800 like he did. :rolleyes:
OSXer, I intend to stop posting on this thread now. It is clear that people do not want a discourse, they want a treatise. OSXer, I think the record of this thread speaks for itself. This thread has constituted a serial discussion of TL techniques by dbletree. In post number 2, dbltree openly and expressly invited participation by boot camp attendees when he said:

I know that Tony has worked hard to help folks understand the importance of safe bedding and feeding areas...just curious how many of you are actually making this a priority??

Or do you feel that if you just grow some food plots that alone will do the trick?

Any thoughts on this subject...because I feel it should be Job 1 in your habitat program.....

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Natural Forage and Cover - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300793#ixzz1DNr8AiPN
Later posts by dbltree brought up teachings of TL (bolding is my emphasis):

Post58: There are several train's of thought on creating individual beds for deer that include "tying" trees down to create over head cover, attempting to create "buck" and "doe" beds. The controversy often leads to arguments and name bashing which is completely counterproductive to helping others learn how to enhance their habitat.

[and]

I am able, very easily to create "overhead" cover without tying, just by hinging trees that often come to rest on adjacent trees such as this situation.

Suffice it to say that after years of hinging trees I have inadvertently created all types of "overhead' cover from 3-4' to 10-15' above the ground but thus far I have not found deer using those types of situations.

What I do find is that deer prefer a slight rise or a ridge where they can lay "behind" a hinge cut tree and see danger approach from below. When that hinged area either grows up to some light brush or has some already, the area will quickly
be covered with fresh beds.

I have found no beds using overhead cover as of yet with the exception of live cedar trees or large shrubs where they often lay in front of or barely under an overhanging branch using the tree as a backdrop.

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Natural Forage and Cover - Page 4 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300793&page=4#ixzz1DNsMoUAV
Post 66: While there is much hoopla about creating a "buck bed" from time to time, actual proof that it has been used by a buck would be nearly impossible unless one has a trail cam focused on the bed. I frequently notice lone does bedded alone so a single bed does not signify for certain that it is being used by a buck.

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Natural Forage and Cover - Page 5 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300793&page=5#ixzz1DNtyn4Yz
Post 89: If you've been raking leaves out of deer beds and tying trees over and you find that it has worked to help you both hold and harvest mature bucks, then you sure ought to keep doing it.

Too many folks have tried it an been deeply dissapointed however so I continue to share what has worked for us and that's a combination of hinging large areas and using conifer plantings to provide screens and safe bedding.

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Natural Forage and Cover - Page 6 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300793&page=6#ixzz1DNv5NaAQ
Post 105: No one picked up sticks or raked leaves out of beds to convince him to stay...

[and]

Once we have a true understanding of a mature whitetail bucks needs, habits and movements and how they change through out the year we can begin to improve our habitat to meet those needs. This same understanding also makes it clear why landowners find attempts at making individual beds ineffectual in actually harvesting mature animals.

[and]

Those answers only serve to further amplify the need to hunt during the rut and to hunt bottlenecks rather then waste time foolishly watching scrapes that mature animals will rarely if ever touch in daylight hours.

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Natural Forage and Cover - Page 7 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300793&page=7#ixzz1DNx46iwn
Post 107:I understand that some folks find it challenging to try some things involving individual beds but if one's goal is to hold mature bucks, those things are not only uneccessary but often counter productive.

[and]

If there are so many "sticks" on the ground that a deer can't lay down then the timber is being neglected and mismanaged in which case a walk with your forester would be in order.

Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Natural Forage and Cover - Page 8 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300793&page=8#ixzz1DO0FHVjN
These are just a few references that indicate that, in those instances where bedding has come up in this thread, the ideas of Tony LaPratt have been brought up, not by boot camp attendees, but by dbltree, over and over and over again. Small wonder that he finally began to elicit some responses, since from the beginning a substantial part of this thread has involved discussions of TL techniques by the OP, with the clear intent of telling readers they do not need to use these techniques.

By the way, I think it is a bit disingenuous of you to suggest that I have not contributed extensively to discussions of deer bedding in this and other threads.
 

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Who has tried to discredit you on this forum?
.......................
You have, go back and read some of your posts. Keep spreading the word about chainsaw work and safety, a young man was killed last week in my area in a chainsaw/tree accident.

L & O
 

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Why are some people constantly trying to push TL concepts onto these threads. We are creating hinge cut areas for "cover and natural forage".
Because we have our own frame of reference:
-We have 40 acres, not 120.
-We don't have mature deer around, because the annual harvest is 70% yearling bucks.
-The deer are more pressured into nocturnal movement and bed during the day.
- etc.

And because Tony Lapratt concepts are quite unique, innovative and for some successful. They are a great framework in which to begin one's plans for natural forage and cover. Successfully hinge cutting areas for cover and natural forage is a huge component of TL concepts.
 

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The title of this thread is not Creating Natural Forage and Cover for Micro Managers. If you want to cover that aspect then start a thread on the topic. Personally, I don't care anymore what direction or where the deer lay in the bedding area. I don't care if they lay under an overhanging branch or hinge, I don't care if they lay beside a stump or log. I do care if they have cover to lay in and feel safe without human intrusion and natural forage to eat. Hence the title of the thread: "Natural Forage and Cover".

This thread is for people that for whatever reason don't buy into the TL micro manager way to do things. If you want to do things the TL way, knock yourself out. There are plenty of threads explaining the techniques...or lack thereof. Why are some people constantly trying to push TL concepts onto these threads. There are other widely accepted ways to build bedding and cover for those that don't want to spend money to learn how. We are not micro managing in this thread. We are creating hinge cut areas for "cover and natural forage".
I agree.
 

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And because Tony Lapratt concepts are quite unique, innovative and for some successful. They are a great framework in which to begin one's plans for natural forage and cover. Successfully hinge cutting areas for cover and natural forage is a huge component of TL concepts.
And that is fine and dandy...But those concepts should be discussed in their own thread and not here. The concepts that Paul is trying to teach are not TL's concepts. Tl teaches those at boot camp...you won't learn them on this thread. This is like trying to push corn on a bean thread. It doesn't belong here.
 
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