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I for one would like to see the evidence that mature bucks are on their feet in Michigan 24/7 during the rut. Anybody else believe that?
I'm with you Jim, I'm sure they have their days but not 7 in a row. Then even if they are up it is in the thickest stuff around or in a 100 acre corn field.
 

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Last time I checked, there is a seeking, chasing and rutting phase in the mature deer's fall schedule. And pressured bucks do occasionally bed in Michigan.

One of the great things about Tony Lapratt is that he sat in observation posts for a good number of years observing what mature deer would prefer to do given a choice. He then developed habitat and hunting tactics to parlay knowledge of deer preferences into successful habitat manipulation. The fact that I came to hunting late in my life, I find this knowledge invaluable. It helps that I am not price sensitive.

Funny thing, a lot of the things that deer prefer, other crepuscular animals do also. It's quite funny knowing the Lapratt system and seeing cats make sure they exit by passing under a chair, they lay under the Christmas tree for bedding. They prefer sitting under the chaise lounge. Overhead cover from predators and weather is not such a small thing to prey animals. Kind of like a Bruce Willis movie where he is hunted excessively and seek cover from gunfire.

The knowledge that Michigan deer like the overhead things and the Iowa deer don't need it is quite laughable. The Iowa deer simply don't need it, the Michigan deer need it.


Excuse me if she doesn't have a log on her ass:

 

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Some folks completely missed the intent of the pictures of natural beds so here's a couple pics to point out the subtle things they tend to choose. It's NOT about the open area, it's about the fact that they like their backs against something.









In all cases they chose to have their backs up against something...it's just information folks...nothing to get your shorts in a bunch over.

If any of you believe that a mature rutting buck chases does all day and then goes scampering back to his bed every night...you need to leave this thread immediately..because I can not help you. I would strongly recommend you learn more about whitetail behavior from people like Charles Alsheimer because rutting bucks rest only briefly wherever they may end up and a "bed" is going to be useless in helping you kill that animal.

That being said...if you feel it is in your best interest...knock yourself out people!

Look folks...I know for a fact that hinging trees creates thick nasty bedding areas, it also creates browse and can be used to bottle up deer and regenerate oaks.

Is there anyone of you that disagrees with that????

Bucks are most vulnerable (daylight movement) during the rut and the best way to kill them is to hunt narrow corridors where they travel between bedding areas...those of you interested in more successful encounters will want to concentrate on that fact when working on your habitat projects....;)
 

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I would strongly recommend you learn more about whitetail behavior from people like Charles Alsheimer because rutting bucks rest only briefly wherever they may end up and a "bed" is going to be useless in helping you kill that animal.
Actually, Charlie would agree in broad strokes that the rut is a time when deer movement is at its peak. But he also recognizes that a mature buck spends much of its life on his stomach, and devotes a whole chapter in his book "Strategies for Whitetails" "Chapter 5--Deer activity: Triggers and supressors" to the reality that there are many conditions that keep a deer from moving in day time. Here is Charlie's summary, to be found in chapter 8:

As was outlined in Chapter 5, the suppressing affects of severe storms, warm air temperatures, poor adult-doe-to-antlered-buck ratios, changing food sources, and human pressure can have a detrimental effect. Any one of these supressors can keep deer from moving on their own.”

--Charles J. Asheimer


What is really interesting about this is how much time Charlie devotes to helping people understand when the "rut" is going to happen, and how to recognize the stages of the rut. The reason is that for the average hunter, it is a time when they are most likely to see a mature whitetail moving, but it is a brief period and so he, and "Deer and Deer Hunting Magazine" and other sources try to help hunters time the rare occasions when big bucks will be on the move. Because it is so rare, timing is important, and that's why Charlie wrote a whole book on the subject of timing the rut, called "Hunting whitetails by the moon."

Most of the time, a mature buck is in one of his beds. Knowing where his bed is located is one of the most important factors a hunter can use to hunt him.

If any of you believe that a mature rutting buck chases does all day and then goes scampering back to his bed every night...you need to leave this thread immediately..because I can not help you.
I certainly don't believe that--and I really do hope that was just a typo on your part. Most seasoned hunters in pressured areas will tell you the opposite is true most of the time. In heavily pressured areas, a mature buck stays on his belly most of the day and most "scampering" is done at night. Virtually every hunting expert who has written a book on the subject, including Charlie Alshiemer, would probably agree with that statement.

I really struggle to understand where you are going with this. Virtually every successful whitetail hunter I know of deals with the fact that a mature buck rarely makes himself visible in day time. I could probably find a quote from every book I have on the subject in my library if I had the time to look. Moreover, the rut is not happening most of the time we are hunting. Michigan's deer season goes from October 1st to January 1st. The frenzy of the main rut happens for only a few days during that period.

Is your thesis really that, because a buck may be on his feet for a few days a year during the rut, that it is meaningless ("ridiculous") to be concerned with where a buck spends most of his time, in his bed?

Look folks...I know for a fact that hinging trees creates thick nasty bedding areas, it also creates browse and can be used to bottle up deer and regenerate oaks.

Is there anyone of you that disagrees with that????
I have not heard anyone disagree with that. Have you?

What has been said is that if you have a small property, randomly hinge cutting may be less advantageous than doing so carefully and treating each tree you cut with special care to make sure you create the best opportunities for bedding and deer movement possible. Why would anyone disagree with that if they know it is possible to do so? Randomly hinge cutting may attract deer but decrease the number of available beds in an area and force the deer to make do, rather than creating optimal habitat. That's all I am saying. It is possible to fine tune the bedding to create more desirable locations for deer and to make sure you know exactly where they are bedding in the cover.
 

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I feel that we need two forums....one for Bio and one for Dbltree and you both need to stay out of the others forum.

I've learn some from each of you and these pissing matches are counter productive to everyone else that are here to learn more about the animals we all love.

Why don't you two stop bashing each other and start your own thread now ?

Thanks for the help from both of you.
 

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Stop !
I feel that we need two forums....one for Bio and one for Dbltree and you both need to stay out of the others forum.

I've learn some from each of you and these pissing matches are counter productive to everyone else that are here to learn more about the animals we all love.

Why don't you two stop bashing each other and start your own thread now ?

Thanks for the help from both of you.


Well Said. This thread inparticular has been an incredible learning tool. I have started planning habbitat work for my new property solely from this thread alone. Just the other day I was explaining this site to one of my friends on how nasty every one was and how little info there really was and HOW DIFFERENt it seemed this winter and how I thought this site was great. But seriously guys I think people (uneducated deer people like myself) are a bit tired of only reading how dumb everyone elses idea are and how they have all the answers but can't tell anyone.

You both seem very knowledgable and I have gained a tremendous amount of info for you along with others. So ,please keep helping and offering advice but quit with the constant "no your stupid talk"

Just my 2 cents sorry if I affended anyone. I do really like your teaching points
 

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I don't see what is wrong with one voicing ones opinion on the subject of this thread. The one guy shows how to do these things, the other guys is showing how and why the same job can be done differently and be more effective in some ways.
Also some statements made by the OP about deer behavior have not been 100% correct. Again nothing wrong with someone pointing that out. If you visit this thread to learn, you mind as well get all the info you can on the subject. Some have paid for the education they are posting on this site. I would be thankful they took the time to chime in.
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The one guy shows how to do these things, the other guys is showing how and why the same job can be done differently and be more effective in some ways.
I think you are incorrect. Dbltree posts info and Bio points out why it is wrong. However he does not give specifics on the subject because it was learned at the TL compound so his "secrets" cannot be told.

I can't tell you exactly how to make deer beds, because I honor an agreement with a man who knows how to do it. What I can tell you, is that it is possible to get a deer to lay in beds you make, you can get them to face the direction you want, you can get them to take the exact path you want out of the bedding area, that they prefer (by far) to lay under overhanging cover, that you can do it, and that you will probably have to pay for the information because you would have to already know how to do it to get it off this website--even though it is here, how do you know which information is right? I would say less than 10% of the hinge cutting pictures on this site are optimal for deer bedding. If you don't already know how to do it, which "expert" do you believe?
I think Bio needs to start his own thread on the subject and let people decide on their own what info to use. If a person was looking for info on this thread he wouldn't find much the last few pages but bickering instead of actual info. I can only hear the TL infomercial from Bio so many times.
 

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Baloney!!! I do not want separate forums for DTree & Bio.

I like what these guys post. I like it a lot. This is a very informative thread.

And having both contribute in a defined space is nothing but a positive for folks who want information without a lot of searching around for it.

Think about it. Here we have two guys, thoughtful and articulate, both with experience and purpose attempting to improve/create habitat for deer. How can that not benefit those of us who want to learn?

Forums....be they on the internet or in the old days of meeting rooms.....are intended to air perspectives and ideas. Often competing perspectives & ideas.

And that's as it should be. We lurkers here can only benefit.
 

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Baloney!!! I do not want separate forums for DTree & Bio.

I like what these guys post. I like it a lot. This is a very informative thread.

And having both contribute in a defined space is nothing but a positive for folks who want information without a lot of searching around for it.

Think about it. Here we have two guys, thoughtful and articulate, both with experience and purpose attempting to improve/create habitat for deer. How can that not benefit those of us who want to learn?

Forums....be they on the internet or in the old days of meeting rooms.....are intended to air perspectives and ideas. Often competing perspectives & ideas.

And that's as it should be. We lurkers here can only benefit.

Well said.
We could lose the drama involved and it would make a great thread even better.
 

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I think you are incorrect. Dbltree posts info and Bio points out why it is wrong. However he does not give specifics on the subject because it was learned at the TL compund so his "secrets" can not be told.
:yeahthat: ... most of the time. Jim did take the time to post some good information on the dynamics of cutting larger trees at one point. This broken record of "you're doing it wrong" in regards to beds, but never offering any value aside from urging people to set a goal of saving $800 to be told, is annoying as hell.

DblTree has posted some decent information on beds.

Bishs has posted some thoughts with regards to beds.

NorthJeff has posted some good information and pictures about beds.

Bioactive just tells every to spend $800 like he did. :rolleyes:
 

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:yeahthat: ... most of the time. Jim did take the time to post some good information on the dynamics of cutting larger trees at one point. This broken record of "you're doing it wrong" in regards to beds, but never offering any value aside from urging people to set a goal of saving $800 to be told, is annoying as hell.

DblTree has posted some decent information on beds.

Bishs has posted some thoughts with regards to beds.

NorthJeff has posted some good information and pictures about beds.

Bioactive just tells every to spend $800 like he did. :rolleyes:

Lets just let the land managers results do the talkin and leave it at that.:idea:





Paul, I wanna drill in some switch this june or july whenever the farmer harvests his wheat. Last year the field was soybeans and was sprayed 2 times, then after harvesting he drilled in winter wheat. The question i have is if he takes the wheat off in june or july can i drill switch in without the worries of spraying roundup? Thanks
 

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:yeahthat: ... most of the time. Jim did take the time to post some good information on the dynamics of cutting larger trees at one point. This broken record of "you're doing it wrong" in regards to beds, but never offering any value aside from urging people to set a goal of saving $800 to be told, is annoying as hell.

DblTree has posted some decent information on beds.

Bishs has posted some thoughts with regards to beds.

NorthJeff has posted some good information and pictures about beds.

Bioactive just tells every to spend $800 like he did. :rolleyes:
Jim has posted some great stuff on here about TL bedding you just need to read between the lines.

I have been fortunate enough to spend a day with Tony because of a friends generosity, and all day long I was saying to myself I knew that or I have heard/read that before. (many times on here)

Keep your eyes and ideas open, deer are like many other animals that have survived centuries employing common survival instincts, like Steven's cat or the organic pig farmer that I met yesterday that told me he could get his sows to farrow looking in a certain direction to reduce crushed piglets, just by giving the sow only one angle of a clear view.

Unfortunately 800 dollars is alot of money to the majority of us, unlike the handful of 50 year old Doctors and CEOs on Sportsman that say it is the only way to go.

I hope their statements don't discourage the young hunters on here from personally getting out in the woods and becoming the next TL on their own merits.
 

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Paul, I wanna drill in some switch this june or july whenever the farmer harvests his wheat. Last year the field was soybeans and was sprayed 2 times, then after harvesting he drilled in winter wheat. The question i have is if he takes the wheat off in june or july can i drill switch in without the worries of spraying roundup? Thanks

I would think so...July is getting kind of late but you shouldn't need roundup.

Let's clear up a couple things

I for one would like to see the evidence that mature bucks are on their feet in Michigan 24/7 during the rut. Anybody else believe that?

Koz..your a smart man...so tell these folks here exactly what time you observe rutting bucks going to bed??

Rutting buck chasing does at your place suddenly stops and says..."gee girls...I'd love too but gosh...look a the time! I have to scamper off to my little bed!!??????????"

Anyone who has actually observed whitetail behavior knows full well that a buck is going to search until he finds a doe coming into estrus. He then will push her AWAY from other deer, often as much as a mile away and frequently into open field areas.

At this point the buck will bed and wait until the doe is ready to breed, so of course he rests...good gosh I'm sorry people but I really though you understood basic whitetail behavior.

That buck then gets 24-48 hours rest until he goes on another head long search for the next hot doe and repeats the process. Anyone with a lick of sense can see how fruitless a "bed" would be.

What is helpful is thick dense bedding areas that hold does and narrow travel corridors connecting them...easy to kill a buck traveling searching for does.

Those that think bucks scurry back to some little bed they made for them are sadly mistaken.

The knowledge that Michigan deer like the overhead things and the Iowa deer don't need it is quite laughable. The Iowa deer simply don't need it, the Michigan deer need it.

Steve...you may forget that I spent nearly 40 years hunting and farming in MI and nothing could be farther from the truth. Deer do not NEED overhead cover but they certainly may choose to use it.

I'm not sure where you even got that idea????? Perhaps you need to go back and re-read what I said...

All I said was that deer seem more likely to lay around, next to, in front of or behind hinge cut trees then underneath it. The point is they LOVE hinge cut areas so WHO CARES if they sleep under them or next to them!!

Deer love overhead cover....never once said they didn't! What they love more then hinge cut trees however is brushy shrubby overhanging cover and conifers. That's why I encourage landowners to plant shrubs and conifers...they absolutely love that kind of cover!

Couple examples...





Conifer cover



Here's a natural little "cove" of trees that happens to have a dead long laying over the top



and here's a bed laying out in the middle of the wide open



Deer have different personalities and may choose ares to bed for different reasons, all the more reason to provide diverse habitat.

Bioactive just tells every to spend $800 like he did.
I'm here to help people and the information I post is accurate and truthful because I LIVE this...I don't spend my days in an office, I spend them in the timber. I understand how whitetails live and breed and react so while I welcome comments I would ask that those who simply wish to pat each other on the back and sooth each others egos to take it somewhere else.

There are people here who believe you are to stupid to learn how to enhance your habitat without paying someone, but I know better. Your intelligent people and you can figure this out without paying someone.

Dbltree posts info and Bio points out why it is wrong.

I love this one...my farms are covered up with deer and beautiful whitetail bucks and I consistently harvest some great deer. Only a jealous person would try to say "your doing it wrong"

Deer love to live in my hinged areas, not only mine but in those areas all across the country where others have taken my free advice.

They can bed under them, beside them, or where they choose but if it's wrong...I'm going to keep doing it.



Folks...I'm sorry for all the crud....this is the only forum in the nation where a couple folks try so hard to discredit me. I can take a lot but I'm only human and after awhile I get sick of their inane nonsense.

Forgive me...I'll try harder to ignore them...:rolleyes:

BTW...if any of you would like to read the article in Quality Whitetails and you do not receive the magazine...send me an email titles "article" and I'll be happy to shoot you a copy.

[email protected]

If you would really like to learn more about hinging trees for bedding, browse and bottlenecks without sorting through the garbage...visit Dbltree's Corner at Outreach Outdoors or Iowawhitetail.com
 

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I would think so...July is getting kind of late but you shouldn't need roundup.

Let's clear up a couple things

Koz..your a smart man...so tell these folks here exactly what time you observe rutting bucks going to bed??

Rutting buck chasing does at your place suddenly stops and says..."gee girls...I'd love too but gosh...look a the time! I have to scamper off to my little bed!!??????????"

Anyone who has actually observed whitetail behavior knows full well that a buck is going to search until he finds a doe coming into estrus. He then will push her AWAY from other deer, often as much as a mile away and frequently into open field areas.

At this point the buck will bed and wait until the doe is ready to breed, so of course he rests...good gosh I'm sorry people but I really though you understood basic whitetail behavior.

That buck then gets 24-48 hours rest until he goes on another head long search for the next hot doe and repeats the process. Anyone with a lick of sense can see how fruitless a "bed" would be.

What is helpful is thick dense bedding areas that hold does and narrow travel corridors connecting them...easy to kill a buck traveling searching for does.

Those that think bucks scurry back to some little bed they made for them are sadly mistaken.

Steve...you may forget that I spent nearly 40 years hunting and farming in MI and nothing could be farther from the truth. Deer do not NEED overhead cover but they certainly may choose to use it.

I'm not sure where you even got that idea????? Perhaps you need to go back and re-read what I said...

All I said was that deer seem more likely to lay around, next to, in front of or behind hinge cut trees then underneath it. The point is they LOVE hinge cut areas so WHO CARES if they sleep under them or next to them!!

Deer love overhead cover....never once said they didn't! What they love more then hinge cut trees however is brushy shrubby overhanging cover and conifers. That's why I encourage landowners to plant shrubs and conifers...they absolutely love that kind of cover!

Couple examples...





Conifer cover



Here's a natural little "cove" of trees that happens to have a dead long laying over the top



and here's a bed laying out in the middle of the wide open



Deer have different personalities and may choose ares to bed for different reasons, all the more reason to provide diverse habitat.

I'm here to help people and the information I post is accurate and truthful because I LIVE this...I don't spend my days in an office, I spend them in the timber. I understand how whitetails live and breed and react so while I welcome comments I would ask that those who simply wish to pat each other on the back and sooth each others egos to take it somewhere else.

There are people here who believe you are to stupid to learn how to enhance your habitat without paying someone, but I know better. Your intelligent people and you can figure this out without paying someone.

I love this one...my farms are covered up with deer and beautiful whitetail bucks and I consistently harvest some great deer. Only a jealous person would try to say "your doing it wrong"

Deer love to live in my hinged areas, not only mine but in those areas all across the country where others have taken my free advice.

They can bed under them, beside them, or where they choose but if it's wrong...I'm going to keep doing it.



Folks...I'm sorry for all the crud....this is the only forum in the nation where a couple folks try so hard to discredit me. I can take a lot but I'm only human and after awhile I get sick of their inane nonsense.

Forgive me...I'll try harder to ignore them...:rolleyes:

BTW...if any of you would like to read the article in Quality Whitetails and you do not receive the magazine...send me an email titles "article" and I'll be happy to shoot you a copy.

[email protected]

If you would really like to learn more about hinging trees for bedding, browse and bottlenecks without sorting through the garbage...visit Dbltree's Corner at Outreach Outdoors or Iowawhitetail.com


The point is they LOVE hinge cut areas so WHO CARES if they sleep under them or next to them!!



Read more at Michigan-Sportsman.com: Natural Forage and Cover - Page 21 - The Michigan Sportsman Forums http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300793&page=21#ixzz1DNipJOTq

The point is they LOVE hinge cut areas so WHO CARES if they sleep under them or next to them!!

Dbltree, you are missing the point!!! SMALL PROPERTY hunters and managers CARE. We need to MICRO MANAGE our habitat improvements. When you hingecut for bedding there are several techniques you can apply that coaxes deer to bed exactly where you want them you facing exactly the direction you want them to. Some advantages would be accessing a stand without being DETECTED or hunting CLOSER to a bedding area. On a SMALL PROPERTY having deer bed randomly throughout the hinge cuts does not allow this.
By MICRO MANAGING our SMALL PROPERTY habitat improvements makes the property larger and opens up more hunting and habitat improvement options.
 

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With the title of this thread being NATURAL forage and COVER, I thought I'd share a few pics I took on a property in Southern Michigan on Saturday.
These are in a naturally secure area of this particular property. These beds were fairly fresh having been made since the snow storm the previous Wednesday.
The largest beds were under overhanging cover and any that were not under cover were smaller and on the perimeter of the group of beds (I assume subordinates).

Big T
 

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..if there's anybody who hasn't figures out how to properly make a bed by reading the forums I don't know if the 800 dollar fee for the bullcamp is gonna help anyways..


It's amazing but true. Not EVERYTHING can be learned by reading on the internet...even when there's pretty pictures and detailed instructions included.:)
I've been reading up on heart surgery so I figure by the end of February I'll be ready to hang my shingle and start cutting.:D


 

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I was trying to connect two concepts. Hinge cutting on one hand and giving the deer brushy, shrubby overhanging cover on the other hand.

CBMlifemember is right:

Jim has posted some great stuff on here about TL bedding you just need to read between the lines.
To clarify, Jim might be saying that instead of taking angled cuts on small hardwood trees in a random fashion, why not take precise techniques on small 40 to 50 acre properties and create bedding areas that emulate the brushy, shrubby overhanging cover and conifer-like areas that deer love so much. Making really nice bedding areas out of hardwood substrate.
Deer love overhead cover....never once said they didn't! What they love more then hinge cut trees however is brushy shrubby overhanging cover and conifers. That's why I encourage landowners to plant shrubs and conifers...they absolutely love that kind of cover!
Sure it's annoying as heck that Lapratt disciples aren't overtly divulging habitat tactics. That's just the way it is. But some are throwing concepts without the details out here. Jim is specifically alluding to hinge cutting to provide overhead cover. We are all smart enough to take a concept and work with it. And not dismiss some things without any other thought.
 

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This is a picture of some hinge cutting I did about 5-6 years ago with information I got from an uninformed source and from information I got off the internet. The results speak for themselves and haven't been duplicated since I learned the proper way to do it from a pro.
This is mostly ironwood, elm, and hackberry, all species that typically hinge quite nicely when done properly. The first couple of winters after this cut I had some of the best rabbit hunting of my life so it wasn't a total waste.
Big T
 

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