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Discussion Starter #1
I know there have already been a thousand threads on this so i am going to get more specific....

I have shoot 2 deer with mechanical broadheads and neither when strait through the deer...

the first i shot at around 25yrds at 54lbs and the right carbon arrows for the setup... the deer only went about 40yrds but the arrow only went up the the fletchings on the far side so about 5 inches short of strait thro...

the second deer was with the same bow but i put the draw up to 64lb and got new carbons... the shot was at 26yrds and it went right thro the middle of the heart... this time the arrow only made it to the fletchings on the near side of the deer... again the deer only ran about 50yrds

i am happy with the way mechanical broadheads shoot but has anyone else had a penatration problem with them or know what might be happening in my situation???
 

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You're getting complete passthroughs and you still think you have a penetration problem?

Defenition of complete passthrough - a hole on entry and a hole on exit.

You're using light carbon arrows at a light draw weight. You may be using too large of a cutting diameter and have a short draw length. All of those factors could contribute to the fact that the arrow isn't going through the deer and into dirt.
 

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GVDocHoliday said:
You're getting complete passthroughs and you still think you have a penetration problem?

Defenition of complete passthrough - a hole on entry and a hole on exit.

You're using light carbon arrows at a light draw weight. You may be using too large of a cutting diameter and have a short draw length. All of those factors could contribute to the fact that the arrow isn't going through the deer and into dirt.
well that is what i was wondering a guess... is my situation even a problem... so i guess you are right and you hit the nail on the head with my draw length... i am 6'1" and for some reason my draw length is like 27.5 i tried changing my form and all to get a longer draw length but my form is right to begin with... i cant get the cams to roll over at 29 inches... Thanks for the input

ps and by that resume i am definatly going to listen to what you have to say... congrates on those titles!!!
 

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Another way you could spin this in a positive manner(not that its needed) is that you are expending ALL of you kinetice energy on the deer itself with none wasted in the dirt.;)
 

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GVDocHoliday said:
You're getting complete passthroughs and you still think you have a penetration problem?

Defenition of complete passthrough - a hole on entry and a hole on exit.

You're using light carbon arrows at a light draw weight. You may be using too large of a cutting diameter and have a short draw length. All of those factors could contribute to the fact that the arrow isn't going through the deer and into dirt.
i'd hardly call an arrow left in a deer a pass-through, regardless of whether a second wound was created.

i'd just as soon see the arrow leave the second wound, and not left to prevent the additional blood loss.

i'm shooting relatively heavy arrows - 500 grain total weight - at relatively slow speeds with cut on contact 2 blade heads. i've not shot an arrow that didn't pass through completely.

i won't argue the merits of fixed blade heads vs. mechanical, but i'd say if you're concerned about pass throughs, as i agree we should be, there's options available to you.

kinetic energy is a poor indicator of penetration, and its to no one's advantage to expend all their energy from an arrow into a deer, since energy does nothing to kill the deer. the deeper the cut, the more tissue that's damaged, which equates to blood loss, which kills deer. arrows that pass through kill are far preferable to arrows that pass half way through.

you could argue that if you make it to the fletchings, and have the majority of the arrow hanging out, a complete pass-through would have no more terminal effectiveness, and for the most part, you'd be right. the complete pass through, however, allows the loss of blood from the body and aids in recovery, which can be a significant advantage.
 

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its to no one's advantage to expend all their energy from an arrow into a deer, since energy does nothing to kill the deer. the deeper the cut, the more tissue that's damaged, which equates to blood loss, which kills deer. arrows that pass through kill are far preferable to arrows that pass half way through.
Not always true. A broadhead that does not penetrate any vitals on the way to a pass through has no chance at further damage from a running deer whereas a head that is lodged inside that deer may continue cutting away. But I do agree that under good shot placements, a pass through is certainly the ideal shot. I would also have to disagree that KE is a poor indicator of penetration. It is indeed energy that allows for any penetration for if it weren't present, there would be no action (re:killing). You must have energy in order to propel anything. Kinetic energy of a particular object is the energy that is produced due to its motion and mass. These are two of the factors that will produce your passthrough. Ther third being friction or lack thereof.
 

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It is not your setup and not uncommon . Mechanical broadheads will expend some energy upon impact , and will reduce penetration with front opening blades . Just as long as you get an entrance and exit hole is what you should be concerned about .

But personally , I prefer my arrow being stuck in the ground to inspect it for blood , so I use fixed blade heads . Slick Tricks , that fly just like my field points .
 

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number one issue, no matter what! is arrow placement and sharp broadheads!
second issue is K.E. DOES KILL just what do you think a bullet has? and that is why deer fall over dead right then and there****all that K.E. displaced in one spot blows everything to***hell*** that powerfull shock to the deers body is K.E. how many times have you seen a deer shot on t.v. and it just blows over or an elk or bear? i dare say that is K.E.
 

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Apply 3-ring sircus theme song here............
 

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arcticcatet71 said:
I know there have already been a thousand threads on this so i am going to get more specific....

I have shoot 2 deer with mechanical broadheads and neither when strait through the deer...

the first i shot at around 25yrds at 54lbs and the right carbon arrows for the setup... the deer only went about 40yrds but the arrow only went up the the fletchings on the far side so about 5 inches short of strait thro...

the second deer was with the same bow but i put the draw up to 64lb and got new carbons... the shot was at 26yrds and it went right thro the middle of the heart... this time the arrow only made it to the fletchings on the near side of the deer... again the deer only ran about 50yrds

i am happy with the way mechanical broadheads shoot but has anyone else had a penatration problem with them or know what might be happening in my situation???
I havent seen too many mechanicals that were all that sharp. I used Grim Reapers, spitfires and a few others and none of them are as sharp as a good fixed blade. I beleive the sharpness of your broadhead makes all the difference no matter what your using. I also noticed mechanicals not always passing through, its just the way they work sometimes. The grim Reaper is an excellent choice if your gonna use mechanicals. Sounds to me like you have the hard part down, shot placement!!!!:)
 

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I have had nothing but pass throughs with mech heads from deer to bear 10yds to 45 yds..... biggest issue see are guys shooting to light of arrows with 2 much blade dia.
 

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I would check with your local archery pro shop and have them check your draw length, make sure that it's not to short.

I have always shot a 70# bow with heavy arrows and 125 grain arrows, no matter if the arrows were fixed or mechanical blades. I never had a complete pass thru, then I found out that my draw length was to short. Once I got that fixed I had 75% pass thru w/ fixed blades and I had only one complete pass thru w/ expandables.

I read a reply earlier that mechanicals lose their energy after hitting the target... this is so true, but only on blades that open straight back. Now, I use the HyperShock 125's and their blades are curved back when fully open.

1. to reduce the loss of energy when fully open
2. to help the energy of the arrow to continue while the blades open

I found out that a lot of manufactors don't make them this way because of the cost it takes to produce them.

And now I use only the Hypershock and now the company even carries a booster to help with pass thru's :)

 

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DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI said:
number one issue, no matter what! is arrow placement and sharp broadheads!
second issue is K.E. DOES KILL just what do you think a bullet has? and that is why deer fall over dead right then and there****all that K.E. displaced in one spot blows everything to***hell*** that powerfull shock to the deers body is K.E. how many times have you seen a deer shot on t.v. and it just blows over or an elk or bear? i dare say that is K.E.
i dare say you are very wrong.

bullets kill from tissue destruction. a bullet, no matter how big or fast its going, will never "blow over" an elk or bear. for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. a projectile that would blow over an elk would also blow over the man that shot it from the immense recoil, if the firearm wasn't anchored and braked at the the muzzle. the frontal area of such a bullet would be immense - far in excess of any firearm you or i could purchase. animals apparently fall over sometimes, but only because they lose their footing in a mad rush to escape.

kinetic energy can be useful at times, but never on its own. here's an example. the june issue of shooting times is sitting on my desk. in a penetration test, they fired a 130 grain, 30 cal, sirocco II at 1811 fps into test medium. then they fired a 130 grain, 30 cal, sirocco II at 2740 fps into a test medium. its obvious which carried more KE, right? sure. but what's interesting is that the bullet traveling at 1811 fps, penetrated 22", a full 9" more than the bullet traveling 2740 fps.

there are many reasons for this - certainly another thread, or even another forum. suffice it to say that KE is but a small piece of a large puzzle.

its been posted here many a time. but the insidious "magnum-itis" that's corrupted our firearm hunters has crept into archery as well. guys simply don't want to shoot big, slow arrows carrying heavy broadheads with a high mechanical advantage. such is life. my apologies in advance, i've found much resistance from hunters when science was interjected into the debate. here's a quote from dr. ashby that summarizes it much more eloquently than i could.

"This use of kinetic energy reflects a misunderstanding of these basic principles of physics. By definition, kinetic energy is the capacity to do work. It is the TOTAL ENERGY of a body in motion. K.E. is scalar, or non-directional, in nature. As applied to an arrow in motion, K.E. includes such things as: radial energy due to arrow flexion, rotational energy due to arrow spin, sonic energy due to vibration, heat energy due to friction, and potential energy (all other remaining energy). (Simple use of K.E. alone, also fails to take into consideration the mechanical advantage of the broadhead.) The kinetic energy of an arrow, by definition, is not a direct indicator of the penetration capability of the bow-arrow-broadhead combination. Momentum is the measure used in physics to quantify the "impulse"; the force exerted over a period of time IN ONE SPECIFIC DIRECTION. Momentum is a unidirectional force vector. Another of those basic laws of physics states that "in cases of collision, whether the bodies are elastic or inelastic, the momentum before collision is equal to the momentum after impact". This means that momentum is the measure of how much energy, due solely to the weight and velocity of an arrow, must be transferred to whatever it impacts before the arrow comes to rest. (Again, momentum alone will not fully predict the penetration capability of an arrow, and the mechanical advantage of the broadhead must also be considered.)

Assuming there is no bending of broadhead or arrow shaft, how far into the target an arrow will go before all available energy is lost (the amount of penetration) depends on three MAIN factors: the resistance of the object impacted (target), the momentum of the arrow, and the efficiency with which the arrow (broadhead) utilizes the force available to it. The resistance of the target we have little control over. Arrow and broadhead selection we do have control over. Use of a broadhead with a high mechanical advantage and use of heavier arrows with high levels of arrow momentum maximizes the penetration of hunting arrows, regardless of what target resistance is encountered."
 

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deputy said:
I have had nothing but pass throughs with mech heads from deer to bear 10yds to 45 yds..... biggest issue see are guys shooting to light of arrows with 2 much blade dia.
deputy i can agree completely with that!

efriesner said:
I read a reply earlier that mechanicals lose their energy after hitting the target... this is so true, but only on blades that open straight back. Now, I use the HyperShock 125's and their blades are curved back when fully open.
not to offend - because its clear that you have thought about what you're doing. you've touched on an important issue, and i might suggest some further considerations.

the problem that you allude to concerns mechanical advantage, or the broadheads ability to do work.

the convex blade design that you pictured, in reality, provides little more advantage than other mechanicals. the limiting factor is the steep increase in the angle of the blades, convex or straight. to overcome such an increase, we'd need a significant increase in energy at the point its encountered. though, we know that energy at impact is applied in a linear fashion.

mechanical advantage - that's the key. a very good example to think about is this:

consider what happens when you're loading a very heavy object onto a truck. you decide to use a ramp, and push the object up the ramp. you have 2 ramps. one is straight incline, and sits at a moderate angle (for our purposes, twice as long as it is high). the other starts off with a gentle incline, then abruptly changes to a very steep incline. which ramp will require more energy for you to get the object into the truck? that ramp is a simple machine, and its "mechanical advantage" measures its ability to do work - in this case, displace the object from the ground to the truck bed. you provide the energy.

in this example, its pretty clear that the straight line ramp will require less energy to do the same amount of work. the ramp with the 2 stage incline requires more energy for the same work, and the nature of the second incline - be it straigt or convex, does nothing to make it as efficient as the first ramp. the inhibiting factor is the abrupt increase of the angle of incline, not the profile of the incline.

i hope that makes sense.
 

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I have always beleived that mechanicals should only be used with a bow drawing 65#'s minimum because of the kinetic energy lost when the blades open. I know it is done with less a lot but that is what I have been told. Ultamately everyone should want a pass through. Two holes is always better than one, but your results are hard to beat. I'd stick with your set up as long as you are killing and recovering your game.
 

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If there is only one hole and the deer goes down within sight, what's the problem? :D

There are very good broadhead options these days and the new cut on contact's look fantastic, but if it ain't broke I am not going to fix it.
 

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Swamp Ghost said:
If there is only one hole and the deer goes down within sight, what's the problem? :D

There are very good broadhead options these days and the new cut on contact's look fantastic, but if it ain't broke I am not going to fix it.
there is no problem.

everyone has different criteria and expectations of their equipment.

i fully believe that there are positive trends that can be established concerning killing and equipment choices.

i also fully believe that the bar has risen on the "tools of our trade" - that is - across the board - from bullets to broadheads, the quality of even the most affordable is as good as its ever been.

what does this mean to today's hunter? it means he can choose most any broadhead or bullet he fancies, and assuming proper shot placement, kill anything that walks.

there are those that believe in over-kill - that big bores, or complete pass-throughs, etc, are unnecessary for killing. those people will kill plenty of deer, to be sure. i personally believe that over-kill is a fallacy. a bullet that blows a big hole completely through a deer, or an arrow that buries itself half shaft in the dirt after passing through a deer gives me the confidence that my projectile will reach the thorax reliably, bone be damned. and should my shot go awry, as it has before and will again, it assures me of maximum ancillary damage, increasing the chance of recovery, no matter how dubious those chances may be.

the gentleman that originally posted inquired about 2 holes. i put the utmost priority on two holes. ideally, the 2nd hole is free to allow blood loss, to aid in tracking. for that reason alone, its worth assuring pass-throughs, imo.
 

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rzdrmh said:
there are those that believe in over-kill - that big bores, or complete pass-throughs, etc, are unnecessary for killing. those people will kill plenty of deer, to be sure. i personally believe that over-kill is a fallacy. a bullet that blows a big hole completely through a deer, or an arrow that buries itself half shaft in the dirt after passing through a deer gives me the confidence that my projectile will reach the thorax reliably, bone be damned. and should my shot go awry, as it has before and will again, it assures me of maximum ancillary damage, increasing the chance of recovery, no matter how dubious those chances may be.
I agree whole heartedly, that's why I shoot a 485 grain arrow out of a 80# bow. ;)
 

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Man I love it when RZ jumos in:lol:

That's all I'll post on the subject;)

As you were.
 
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