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Side note, again just pointing out a fact. Doberman's may have both done for the reasons previously stated, but police German Shephards and Belgian Malinois somehow seem to do their jobs taking down crooks without either being done.

Their ears naturally stand up.....
 
Easy there. My point, not well written I must admit, is that it's a difficult thing to fight because there are so many people out there who don't have a bone in the fight and/or that there are lots of dogs that people can see don't have these things done to.

Yeah, westcoasthunter, your post doesn't make alot of sense. I sent you a P.M. to give you a glimpse of our future. Take sometime and browse their site. Then come back ready to fight for our rights.

Take care.
 
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I happen to be the owner of a long-tailed GSP, only because she came to me that way at 12 weeks. If the breeder had given me the choice to make, I probably would have had it docked, simply because it's the standard.

My GSP has a bum front leg from an accident when she was about 6 months old. When she had the cast on, she very obviously used her tail to stay balanced, and even now she wags it in a circular motion rather than back and forth, which keeps her balanced as she's a little bit of a tripod. I think they have tails for a reason...

On the flip side, my EP has speckled our wallpaper with blood from various "happy tail" incidents. Mike (Findthebird) has a short-tailed EP for that reason. Why docking is the standard for GSPs but not EPs is beyond me. I would hate to lose the ability to dock a tail for health reasons or even for preventative reasons.

At the end of the day, I see it in the same light as the statewide smoking ban: leave it up to consumers. If people want doctored up dogs, let'em. If they don't, let'em vote with their dollars.

It makes me very sad to live in a society in which we have to cram our ideas down each others' throats using legislation, rather than engaging in a dialog with each other to educate and change behavior. Makes me want to pack my dogs and move up to the northwoods to be a hermit...

KW
 
I can remember running across some European tail injury statistics within the last year from before and after tail docking bans went into effect--I don't remember the exact numbers, but the post-ban numbers were significantly higher.
That said, I've heard of amputions with pointers, but not many, and I don't recall ever hearing it happen to a setter. I think my dog was simply an extreme case, with the medical treatment bobbled by both the owner:gaga: and his vet.
 
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that is my goal...go live in the woods! with that said ..

Someone had posted that the Dobes ears are cropped to do guard work...Not my breed so I do not know if that why cropping started but when I read it, it made sense. I for one would not want to TRY and grab the ears on a Shep or Malinois trained for shutzhund work...
The whole point of this discussion is people imposing their misguided views on others. Hunting, fishing and trapping if you haven't noticed are prime targets!
So if you do any of those you should really take an interest in this type of regulation, because it WILL have a trickle down affect.
It is the FREEDOM to make our own decisions that is at stake. Because it will start with smoking bans in restaurants (ok by me) and escalate to smoking bans in your own home, which is not ok by me...it is happening now.

Good intentions by the uninformed gone awry...because obviously we the people are to stupid to make our own decisions.
 
I can remember running across some European tail injury statistics within the last year from before and after tail docking bans went into effect--I don't remember the exact numbers, but the post-ban numbers were significantly higher.
That said, I've heard of amputions with pointers, but not many, and I don't recall ever hearing it happen to a setter. I think my dog was simply an extreme case, with the medical treatment bobbled by both the owner:gaga: and his vet.

Not like we should be modeling ourselves after the Europeans in any way, shape or form. The EU is a perfect example of government gone bad...the Animal Rights Activists have gone crazy over there...and they are fast gaining ground here.:mad:
 
I do my own tails at 3 days old it takes me less than 1 min per puppy and they don't even feel it. They protest when you pick them up not when I do the procedure. I used to have a breed with cropped ears they were always done by the vet, not anything I would even attempt!

I have seen happy tail and know that I don't ever want to see it again.
Roger that, Gina.

In a former life we raised Britts. I've done the tails and dewclaws of dozens of litters of Britts and other Continental breeds on Day 2 after whelping. Its simple, safe and pain free. A few simple instruments and a little instruction would enable any experienced breeder to do the same.

Those people in the state houses are NUTS!:rant:

NB
 
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a person can rationalize almost anything. i supervised a number of police K9's aand the last thing you will think of is grabbing a dogs ears to prevent a bite. i've laid down lots of tracks for the k9's and taken lots of bites. even with a heavily padded sleeve it's not fun. to my knowledge, dobermans are never used for this type of work. german shepards used to be the dog of choice, now there are lots of melanois.(sp?) a friend of mine had the most famous and successful tracking dog in this state. a golden retrieverr named bounce. no ear cropping or tail docking there.

i often drive by a kennel that raises boxers. they are always running around with their ears wrapped and their tails docked. they are raised for pets or companions. there is no reason to crop or dock except it's the fashion.

all my dogs crack their tails and bloody them, they bloody their tongues too on the bracken fern. they dont get infected. mikes dog was a rare occurrance. people get infections in their limbs, especially their feet and have to have them amputated. but we dont cut off feet to prevent it.

i'm no fan of HSUS or PETA. but in this case they have a valid point. and you have to pick your battles and choose your ground. and here, they have the high ground.
 
the Animal Rights Activists have gone crazy over there...and they are fast gaining ground here.:mad:
Agreed... Despite what I said in my former post about legislation, I think outdoorsmen (and women) need to get proactive, enacting legislation to PROTECT our rights, before they are all stripped away. Some kind of "Hunters' Bill of Rights"... Unfortunately, we're a pretty lethargic group compared to HSUS, so I don't see that kind of thing ever happening.

KW
 
The breed of dog I have has both cropped ears (almost fully cropped was one variation) and docked tails. I have some that don't have the ears cropped and they are a constant battle with ear infections. My dogs are a utilitarian working breed that should be worked in some fashion...i've chosen obedience/protection work with some of mine. They manage just fine with their type of tail docking (4th vert) in regards to balance etc... if the dog grew up with his tail docked they can compensate for this. Dogs are very adaptable.

I prefer to have them kept to the standard they were designed for. Yes alot of it is for looks, but for some dogs and jobs you have them do, cropping/docking is necessary to protect the dog from injury (including myself from being beaten by those darn mastiff tails). For a century or protection dog, the cropped ears vs floppy can make them look far more intimidating, thats part of the dogs job.

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Yes shepards have erect ears which they can maneuver back out of the way close to their heads, floppy eared dogs cannot do this. Even for a shepard, if their temperment or training is not that good, they can be intimidated by an ear grab. However, they should be conditioned to do the work while having ears grabbed, eyes poked etc. (and I've seen plenty of police dogs that should not be doing the work)

*

Point is, there are many people who still properly utilze the breed of dogs they have. The dog was cropped or docked for reasons to protect the dog from himself or his job, not to be crewl. Yes the majority of people who have dogs (frankly shouldn't have them anyway) don't need them cropped or docked. When I bred my dogs, I left the ear cropping up to the owner of the puppy. The tails were docked at 3 days.

*

Thanks for the post and information. If you give these people an inch, they'll take the whole mile. The ultimate agenda for these people is to eliminate breeding and ownership of animals, hunting and fishing etc..and they're doing it a little piece at a time.
 
Agreed... Despite what I said in my former post about legislation, I think outdoorsmen (and women) need to get proactive, enacting legislation to PROTECT our rights, before they are all stripped away. Some kind of "Hunters' Bill of Rights"... Unfortunately, we're a pretty lethargic group compared to HSUS, so I don't see that kind of thing ever happening.

KW
i think you are right in a general sense. but the anti groups have a "cause" that reallly helps them raise huge amounts of money. peta wanted to air commercials during the superbowl? what would that have cost? the pro hunting groups dont have that kind of money. until the hunting groups unite behind a common cause and become proactive, they will never encite people in the way the antis do. i bet hsus and peta dont hold banquets and raffles to raise money.
 
all my dogs crack their tails and bloody them, they bloody their tongues too on the bracken fern. they dont get infected. mikes dog was a rare occurrance. people get infections in their limbs, especially their feet and have to have them amputated. but we dont cut off feet to prevent it.

i'm no fan of HSUS or PETA. but in this case they have a valid point. and you have to pick your battles and choose your ground. and here, they have the high ground.
They do not have the high ground. They simply want to take our dogs, both yours and mine, away from us and outlaw hunting at the same time too.

You may not have had merry tail problems with "your dogs" but I seen many that have in other parts of the country. Some had to be amputated- so its not "rare" IME. The cover here in Michigan is child's play compared to the MFR hedges in NY-NJ-PA or the brier patches in the South. You need to get out there more.

People who have to have foot amputations are diabetics who dont take care of themselves. They have PAD and diabetic neuropathy. Comparing them to long tailed hunting dogs is ridiculous.

Natty B.
 
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a person can rationalize almost anything. i supervised a number of police K9's aand the last thing you will think of is grabbing a dogs ears to prevent a bite. i've laid down lots of tracks for the k9's and taken lots of bites. even with a heavily padded sleeve it's not fun. to my knowledge, dobermans are never used for this type of work. german shepards used to be the dog of choice, now there are lots of melanois.(sp?) a friend of mine had the most famous and successful tracking dog in this state. a golden retrieverr named bounce. no ear cropping or tail docking there.

i often drive by a kennel that raises boxers. they are always running around with their ears wrapped and their tails docked. they are raised for pets or companions. there is no reason to crop or dock except it's the fashion.

all my dogs crack their tails and bloody them, they bloody their tongues too on the bracken fern. they dont get infected. mikes dog was a rare occurrance. people get infections in their limbs, especially their feet and have to have them amputated. but we dont cut off feet to prevent it.

i'm no fan of HSUS or PETA. but in this case they have a valid point. and you have to pick your battles and choose your ground. and here, they have the high ground.
You must keep all your dogs outside. I have a GSP and a pointer outside and a mastiff and English cocker inside. My old pointer from Ferrel Miller's kennels used to crack her tail so hard she would be spattered in blood after a hunting or training session. If she tore it up enough we had to take her out of commission for awhile. My little cocker has two or three times the tail action of any pointer I've ever seen and I would sure hate to see what the walls, furniture, and bedding in the house would look like if we couldn't dock those tails.

What strikes me as funny is people manipulate themselves cosmetically through plastic surgery all the time. They get tummy tucks, boob jobs, nose, ear, butt, etc.. and no one raises a fuss. Heck, I'd say judging by the popularity of the Go Daddy commercials many of us even admire their work, but were all going to get worked up over someone docking some puppy tails to keep a dog from beating himself bloody. Amazing.
 
Not arguing, just wanting to point out something. In many parts of Europe hunting is a rich man's game. It's not something you'll find the average person doing like you do here without a significant dent being made to their pocket book since many areas hunted are on private land. Add heavy taxes on weapons, regulations on them, etc etc. It should be no surprise that laws against ear cropping and tail docking have been able to go into effect there since the vast vast majority of people there don't hunt, don't own dogs that hunt, and thereby couldn't care less what the reason is behind either practice.

Side note, again just pointing out a fact. Doberman's may have both done for the reasons previously stated, but police German Shephards and Belgian Malinois somehow seem to do their jobs taking down crooks without either being done.
I had a dobie without cropped ears and they're big. Picture hound or maybe GSP ears.
 
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i do keep them outside. but it wouldnt matter if i didnt. by the time that we get home they are all healed up anyway. doesnt take long if they dont keep whacking them against something.

the pointer and setter owners dont seem to have any problem with all this. i've only seen two, one is mikes dog and the other was from quite a while ago. he was in a small kennel and kept whacking or catching on the wire.

as far as what humans do, they choose to do that to themselves. and it is all "fashion", people dont get those rings through their lip for any practical reason. and i dont buy all the reasons for this either.
 
What strikes me as funny is people manipulate themselves cosmetically through plastic surgery all the time. They get tummy tucks, boob jobs, nose, ear, butt, etc.. and no one raises a fuss...
I don't disagree on the issue, but you're logic doesn't quite work out. The difference is choice. Adult humans choose plastic surgery, dogs have the decision made for them -- having elective procedures done TO them. Now I may be old school, but I see my dogs as something closer to property than people, so I have no problem with people making that decision and having those procedures being done. However, you're not going to make any headway against the activists with your argument.

Ironicly, those are the likely same people who don't have any problem with adult humans making the choice to end the lives of unborn humans, but I won't open that can of worms... or did I just do it? :D

KW
 
i'm no fan of HSUS or PETA.
Coulda fooled me by your statements.....guess you'll fall right in line when they decry e collars and shooting training birds as 'cruel'.
 
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i'm no fan of HSUS or PETA. but in this case they have a valid point. and you have to pick your battles and choose your ground. and here, they have the high ground.

OK, I want to pick DOVE HUNTING!!:dizzy:

It is attitudes like this from "hunters" that made that proposal fail.:yikes:
 
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