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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The "killer" thread got me to thinking.
Todays society has changed greatly over the years. People don't smile & say hello, don't treat each other with respect they used to. Todays consumer is so demanding. Things used to be agreed upon with a handshake, ones word ment something & on and on.

Game & fish laws have changed also. Years ago there used to be no baiting for deer, Now fathers teach there kids to learn to hunt & take them out to a bait pile. Now its nice for a kid to not get discouraged & see some deer but what is this doing ?
Our DNR has keep selling licenses and are afraid of cutting back to much.
Our 5 bird grouse limit is hard for a lot of hunters to obtain, least the average hunter. Some would shoot a bird & be fine with that.
They would never consider cutting it back & alot believe it would make no differece in the population.
A lot of hunters seem to think if they had the entire season, hunted everyday and took a limit everyday(not from all the same covers of course) they are just good game managers.
Some feel hunting a preserve (fenced) is not ethical, the governor of Indiana is putting them out of bussiness in that state. Some feel shooting preserves for birds are unethical. Some feel its ok to hunt deer but not doves.
More pitting hunters against hunters.

At what point are ethics put aside for economics ?
We are our own judge.

What do you think ?

Wally
 

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Wally, You are right hunters are truly their own judge. We would be better off if hunters would not attack other hunters. As long as it is legal we should leave it alone. If I feel it is not ethical I can choose not to participate.

Also shooting animals behind a fence is not hunting.:evil:
 

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I think what might help the whole hunting community is a little more respect shown by all hunters. Every year guys hop out on my business' property and deer hunt without permisson. We have had deer gutted, meat and horns taken, and the rest left laying for my dogs to get into. I had one this year, they shot it, took the back straps, and left the rest laying there. This year I gave permission to the kid that works for me to hunt there. He asks to bring his Dad out one night, and some hunters came on while they were hunting and preseeded to have an argument with them.:mad: It was those a-holes fortune I was out of town. This is just one, 15 acre wooded parcel were talking about. And I wonder why I can never get permission from land owners to take a run through a field with my dogs for a bird. People are just sick of all of the poor tactics and actions done by hunters over the years. I am not just blaming deer hunters, it's all those that do stuff they no is not right. My Weim never had seizures, until he got into a pile of deer guts on my property three years ago. I have posted property, and I will have the next person I find back there without permission, "Arrested"!
 

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Yes, times have changed. Our outdoor sports have changed as well. Some for the better, some probably not. I agree with everything said by double gun.

We all should be careful about criticizing anothers sport. I don't like hunting over bait, but alot of others do. They have their reasons and I have mine. While still hunting, I'm much more likely to infringe on a bait hunters hunt. Than he is likely to infringe on mine, while watching his bait. He's probably more successful than I am as well.

When I think of ethical hunting I think of things like well placed shots, clean kills, and certain recovery of the game.

As for preserve hunting, it can have it's place. Training young shooters, young dogs, helping groups get together and enjoy themselves outdoors. These are all worthwhile. They are recreation though, not hunting. I would make a distinction here for low fence as opposed to high fence hunting of big game.

As for hunting licenses. I like the concept of over the counter purchase. But if the resource cannot support it, then I will tolerate restrictions. I believe the bear and elk programs for an example, are well run. As for the whitetail deer debate,there are so many side and opinions, that I'm not sure what to think about it.

Ethics, have to remain an individual thing. They are closely related to morality, which we all know cannot be legislated.
 

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Double Gun said:
Also shooting animals behind a fence is not hunting.:evil:
I agree

I think that ethics gets lost in the mix. You could take this subject and do it with every type of hunting and most fishing. Its like the fathers that teach their kids its ok to snag salmon. Or for some bird hunters that can take a limit in the morning and then do it in the evening. I have heard of this not just recently but more so back when there was an abundance of wild pheasants in Michigan. The issue of ethics in hunting and fishing has been around a long time and apears to be getting worse as the years go on. But really what can we do?
Ric
 

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Duece22 said:
I agree

I think that ethics gets lost in the mix. You could take this subject and do it with every type of hunting and most fishing. Its like the fathers that teach their kids its ok to snag salmon. Or for some bird hunters that can take a limit in the morning and then do it in the evening. I have heard of this not just recently but more so back when there was an abundance of wild pheasants in Michigan. The issue of ethics in hunting and fishing has been around a long time and apears to be getting worse as the years go on. But really what can we do?
Ric
You can make sure you show people the right way to go about things.

Well lets see, I guess my ethic's in terms of limits, have more to do with how content I feel through out the season, in the beginning of the year I will admit I like to pull the trigger, after all training and scouting for me becomes a little bit like going to a titty bar, you can look all you want, it costs you money, but your still not taking anything home. As the season progressess I feel more content with less birds, the last day of the reg season, I shot two grouse, I had 15 minutes left of light in a cover that had more than two birds in it, but two felt right....I no longer had anything to prove that night.

I think it depends on species also. Pheasants are much more rare in MI than Grouse, I guess even though I could shoot two a day, ethically I feel there is a certain limit each piece of cover can take, with out me harming the bird numbers in the future.

The best post on number of grouse shot per season I ever read was by Dave Rose somewhere, it says all you need to know, from both a biological perspective as well as a ethical perspective. I will let Dave dig it up if he wishes.

Fritz
 

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I've talked to people that think it's wrong to tree a bear, then turn around and talk about hunting birds or bunnies with their dogs. People have their own ideas of ethics.
I'm not for shooting yearling deer, but I've never tried to age a squirrel or rabbit before taking the shot. I'll shoot a young of the year rabbit or squirrel and never feel bad about it. It makes alot of stomages turn when they see a fawn dressed out at #80 in the back of a truck. Is it because the animal is a baby, or is it because it's a baby deer? I'm also not for QDM, so why does it matter to me what someone chooses to shoot. I think most people have a problem with it because of the whole shooting "Bambi" thing.
Now don't go attacking me :bash: I think it's wrong too. Just another thing that most would say is unethical but leagle.
Hog hunting on a ranch don't bother me, but for some reason I don't think you should shoot a penned deer. Is there really a difference?
I also don't see anything wrong with baiting deer as long as it's done leagle. If it's done leagl that little bait put out won't attracts heards of deer. Maybe it will stop the deer to take a clean ethical shot. I hunt from a tree stand with no bait. But I'm hiding above the deers sight using whatever else I can to trick them into making them think that's a good area to be. Camoflage, cover scents, doe in heat, grunt tubes, and waiting to ambush my prey. I know there is a slim chance of deer getting TB from sharing a bait pile, but I don't think that's why most people are against it.
There is nothing wrong with trying to teach your kids about your ethics. But as hunters we have to at least not argue about our ethics. Think of it this way...If a bill is introduce to ban hunting bear with dogs, where will you stand? Even if your against hunting bear with dogs we have to stand together. It might be your bird hunting with dogs or rabbits with beagles next.
Sorry for rambling so much, but I think this is a good topic.

Ed
 

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there is no constitutional "right to hunt". hunting exists at the sufferage of the non- hunters that make up about 80% of our population.

if hunters are not critical of themselves and the behavior of other hunters, then someone else will do it for them.

ethics is not an easy subject for discussion or even introspection. but simply because something is legal does not make it ethical. to the best of my knowledge, in Michigan, it is legal to leave game birds and animals in the field as long as the limit is not exceeded. but few, if any, would argue it is ethical.

my defintion of ethical in regards to hunting is based on the idea of fair chase. both Boone and Crockett and Pope and Young websites have definitions of Fair Chase. the latter is more specific. those are prestigious and long standing hunting organizations, you might start with reading their definitions of Fair Chase.

there is much discussion of ethics as businesses are starting to attempt to teach the subject to their executives. and we see a lot of unethical behavior in public life, we often refer to it as "shady". legal but unethical. unfortunatley ethics is not a subject that is often taught in high schools or colleges. i had a liberal arts education in the late '60's and i was fortunate to take a required course in the subject.

it's an excellent one for discussion. why else do we hunt but for "ethical" reasons? few do it for the meat although that is certainly a byproduct of hunting. dont we all take pride in doing something difficult, something that few others do? dont we celebrate our ancestors way of life when we hunt? and so, shouldnt our standards be the very highest out of respect for the animals that allow us to hunt them and for our distant forefathers who, through hunting, made man into Man.
 

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drwink said:
The "killer" thread got me to thinking.
That's weird. I think it had quite the opposite effect on some others. lol Brian.
 

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Just cause its legal, dosent make it right. I came across a off duty game warden who was out during the quiet time (grouse woods) picking morrels with a lab running loose.
After I challenged him, he declared he wasnt training his dog, he was excersizing the dog. (letting a hunting dog run wild during nesting season, unsupervised is excersize?)
Now as far as I am concerned, if any officer of the law can twist regulations at their discretion, they suck. If that warden found you with a gallon too much in the bait pile, he would have your arse.
That showed me at least one warden was a real jerk.
 

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Wally - Guess I'm not exactly sure what your question is.... sort of.

The title of the Thread is an easy answer... imo. if it's legal doesn't mean it ethical. But the problem is that everyone has there own set of ethics, to some degree.

Is it legal to shoot ducks off the water? It's NOT ILlegal so that makes it legal right? But is it ethical? imo, no.

Same with upland birds, it's not illegal to swat 'em of the ground but is it ethical? How about popping them with a .22? Legal? Yes. Not ethical? Maybe, maybe not. Ask a big game guide out west, they pop 'em all the time for camp meat. It's an accepted practice out there to pop 'em of a limb. Who's right? Is it a "when in Rome" thing?

The other question in your thread of the econimic vs ethics is what I'm not sure I understand. Does that relate to the baiting scenario? I think what your saying is that IF baiting was / is unethical that the DNR would never admit it because they would lose hunters (money) because that is their perfered way to hunt?

Fritz - I don't remember a post about what you mentioned. Any other hints to refresh my memory?
 

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Thanks Fritz. I really don't remember but will see if I can't find something on a search over there.
 

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"everyone has their own set of ethics". a common misconception. ethics and morals are dictated by society. therefore, an individual can have an ethical standard that is more restrictive than that dictated by society, but not less.
 

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DW - I see your point and considering you have taken classes regarding the subject I think I'd be a fool to argue the point. More of a question in my own mind would be; can't a persons ethics be less than that of society? For example (hunting related), you might think it's unethical to shoot grouse with a .22 but I think that it's not unethical. It's legal, but is it ethical? It's ethical in big game county out west but unethical to a wing shooter. Is there a right (ethical) or wrong (unethical) answer? Who's society dictates? I guess in my own mind it's not as black and white as you say.
 

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A couple quotes from Aldo Leopold regarding ethics as it pertains to hunting and conservation.
On outdoor ethics: “A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. The ethics of sportsmanship is not a fixed code, but must be formulated by the individual, with no referee but the Almighty.”
On the land ethic: “A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise.”
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Leopold quotes are very much true, however things he did not take into account.

Today's political correctness as much as I hate it. Recently I think Steve Smith wrote about hunting a roadside ditch in Iowa or somewhere where a little girl saw them blast a pheasant while riding by in a car. The image she will have as an adult will be an "antihunter"

Not so apparent today as a few years ago, so maybe some are trying to not portray such a barbaric image of hunting is the display of dead deer on cars.
Hunters are usually proud of their take & I understand this.
Even more of the photo's taken "should be without blood"

Then you have guys, some here that don't post just an occasional photo, but seem to do it everytime out.
The photo's for one, make it look like the guy takes a limit everytime out.
But what they don't say that is was accumulative, either there were several hunters or the take was from over a couple days.

This could get to some people, kind of like one sided reporting. If you leave out some selected infomation you can make things "appear" however you want.
We know this, the anti's do it all the time.

Sometimes we all need to take a breath, gather some more infomation & not be to quick to judge.

I just shake my head at times, sometimes laugh inside at people.
Like watching a manager of a business "manage by knee jerk reaction"

My dad used to have a sign up at home in his basement workshop all it said was "THINK" & as a kid I never thought much of it.
Now I have a sign like that in my basement so called office.

I just started this thread to see how others think, expose each other to each others thoughts.

We are all products of our enviroments, how we were raised has a lot to do with our ethics, I sleep at night pretty well if the dogs don't get me up.
Won't compromise mine for the mighty dollar & my decisions will be the same weather or not someone is watching.

Well thats enough rambling for now, (get around the holidays & I get all kushy) probably got a little side tracked.

Wally
 

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Wally - Thanks, points well taken. Although my guess is that little girl out in Iowa was probably jealous that she couldn't be out hunting instead of riding in that darn car. :)

I like the "THINK" sign too. I wonder if it would work at my house? :lol:
 

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We all have our own standards as to what we think is ethical or moral. The problem starts when we judge others by our standards. In a recent thread someone decided that it was unethical to fish using a two fly rig. If you choose as an individual not to use a two fly rig, no problem, but when you call the other guy unethical if he uses a two fly rig you have crossed the line.

If the person is snagging with a two fly rig, he is unethical because he is snagging which is against the law. If a person shoots a limit of birds in the morning and again in the afternoon, he is also unethical because the law says you can only kill a limit a day.

Recently there was another thread that started with a picture of a deer quartering toward the person taking the picture. The author then asked the question; “Would you take this shot.” Most people gave their opinion, but some said it would be unethical if anyone took that shot. That’s where they crossed the line.

There was another recent thread where the author called people primordial if they didn’t give all the details about where and how they caught fish because he always told the world all his secrets. Another example someone setting themselves up as a moral judge.

In general it all boils down to the legality of an issue. If someone is breaking the law, then the practice is unethical and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out. If the person is breaking your rules and you want to judge him by your standards, is makes you a judgmental horses a$$.

Yes there are times someone can be unethical and still be legal, but unless someone appoints you and all knowing supreme sportsman, it is best to keep those opinions to yourself.

I am convinced that there are some people who think they are proving to everyone that they are ethical by pointing out how the other guy doesn’t understand sportsmanship. In the end that kind of thinking is not good for them, not good for sportsmen in general and does not further communication on this site.
 

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ethics certainly can be individual. but they are dictated by society or groups within a society. many professional groups, such as doctors or attorneys have a code of ethics.

ethics, morals, and mores are how a society controlls the behavior of its members. so if someone is doing something unethical, one not only has the right, but the obligation to criticize them.

as hunters, we should hold our sport to the highest standard, not the least common demoninator. the measure should not be "i wont criticize your behavior, so you cant criticize mine".

the game laws themselves came into being to hold us all to a standard, a minimum standard to be sure, but at least a standard.

the high achievers in this world are those that are very critical of themselves and others.
 
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