Michigan Sportsman Forum banner
1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
Funny some of the best years for browns were when they quit planting them saying there was bad returns. It was fairly simple any time in April to go get a limit from st. Joe to Muskegon. Lots of guys doing it. Lots of guys catching. Then it stopped and moved to am area where they aren't fished for near as much. SF browns did way better.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
I have caught between 20 and 30 lake run browns so far this year out of Huron. I know others who have done similar. These fish are coming from a couple small upriver plants that are intended to be stream fish. I think one of the keys here is that these fish are planted way upriver. Miles from the lake. These fish go to the lake when they want to. I believe a lot of these fish migrate to the lake later in summer when the temp in the lower river gets warm. They get out instead of going up. By doing this, they avoid the early spring predator gauntlet. Also, one of the streams they are planted in has degraded so badly in some of the upper and middle stretches, I doubt it could support the plant, so some may have to go regardless of temp.
Also, outer Saginaw bay is perfect for browns. A variety of food, great nearshore structure, cool water almost always fairly close. I never quit catching lake runs. Even after they stopped planting them. I think there's some lessons here.
Careful on the west side that would mean they would start planting them out at the mouth. Try to ruin it. Used to get a pile of browns in the st Joe. Grand and Kalamazoo. Great fishing in the spring on big lake. They switched planting locations. Times and species and then it slowly went away in rivers then completely since they stopped stocking.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
It would certainly be nice to see some type of brown trout stocking program in the southern basin again. I have talked to guys from St. Joe, South Haven and Muskegon and that seems to be the general consensus. People would like to see more coho stockings to. Of course, I would like to see that as well. Sadly, I highly doubt we will ever see browns stocked down here ever again as pier and shore fishermen are to small of a group and voice. Today when you catch a brown it draws a crowd. Seems everyone has to see it. You would think someone said a guy just caught a Ceolacanth. Seriously.
The problem is. Then why are they planted north where there are even less people fishing them. The planting move north made zero sense whatsoever.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
Creel starts April 1st and has since 1989. Most ports caught 2,000 to 4,000 browns a year while the clerk was working through the 1990s. It started to fall to just a few hundred around 2010 and some ports went below 100.

The thought that conditions were too poor in south and that we should move them north and increase the stocking of those northern ports. This is our last for the experiment before we re-evaluate.

We could consider having a port in south one near Manistee and one in UP and cut the rest.

I will follow up with creel and stocking numbers.


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app
Funny I cought over 130 myself in 2010. And was never checked one time by. A creel worker. That was fishing nearly every day I could get out through March amd April. From st Joe to Muskegon and everywhere in-between. Every boat id talk to had fish also amd there was boats at every port and more pier guys than there is now. Great numbers! 👍
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
It is pointless more or less they already have there mind made up. Lake trout. Walleye. And there number 1 fav money pig sturgeon are what matters to Jim and Jay and always have been. They have never answered the hard questions and when they have they went back against there word. He says browns were cut do to poor returns but when every person fishing every port has other to say they just quit asking. Browns were cut because they quit putting in sea forelen do to an inbred brood stock. So rather than get new broods they went to multiple different strains. The same strains as they have put in creeks for years. Makes sense right??? 🤔 nope.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
Then listen to the answer's given lol. Think about what you just said also Jay. They like dirty water. So you move th away from the dirtier water in lake Michigan 🤔 ok??? And warming or not they do better than all other species in the lake with warm water. So again. Nope
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
Then show me your catch reports. When was brown fishing it’s best in St Joe? I would like to compare that to strain, water productivity, bait, creel times etc.

Give me a port in the south to stock and tell me why you think it will be better than last 10 years?

If we do what you suggest, how would you evaluate it? How long would you test it?

I am showing you the data that we have available and the assumptions that we have made. Prove us wrong. I would love to have a brown trout fishery. I fish in a small boat, so would love to be catching some while coho fishing or go and target them.

We are just trying to be efficient with our stocking.


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app
I have shared that stuff with you. Multiple other people I know as well as other charter captains I worked for back in the time frame we're talking about also shared with you. Multiple people I know reported all of their stuff just like off just like FBD through salmon ambassadors and were told that they were not supposed to give other data on other fish because it was not needed. Many of us were at the meetings asking to not have the Brown trout go away telling you exactly what we were seeing on the water and we were not listened to then why should we trust you now after all the years of lies
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
What do you know about Sturgeon River strain? It is a naturally reproducing stain that migrates out to lakes. That is what we are stocking now along with wild rose.

Yep. We are fighting to maintain alewife to make this a lake trout and walleye fishery. If that is what we wanted we should go back to stocking 5 million chinook in the lake and you would have lake trout and walleye immediately.


Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app
I never have once said anything about not being for the cuts that were made to chinook but don't joke with anybody and act like we would be in the same position we are right now if there wasn't over 3 million lake trout being dumped in and eating all of the ale wives every year. Also don't act like you didn't Do things to Increase these numbers of lake trout after telling everybody that you said that you were doing everything you could. I don't know a lot about sturgeon river Browns because I don't get any of them actually nobody in the parts of Southern lake Michigan that used to get Browns get any Browns anymore so I haven't made myself very readily available to knowing about them.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
Or, we could just relax and conclude that certain antedotal observations are not consistent with the science?
Problem with most biologists and scientific types is it doesn't matter what real world evidence shows. If it isn't in a book or there study it doesn't mean anything and it is false. Even though you can find a different study that shows opposite most of the time. Amazing the change in what's Michigan lake trout studies showed to begin and how much that's changed. 👌someone that is on the water 10 15 times a year may not have more than anecdotal. Others that are on the water 100 or 250 times plus or more probably have a pretty good idea what's going on. Most of the time more than anyone reading a study.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
FBD’s observations, for the most part, seem to come from Sagatuck, Holland, Port Sheldon, and Whitehall. Mine are less frequent from a broader range, but consistently shallower, the academic studies are generally trawl net based in deeper water at varying depths. Regardless, all of the observations, all have some degree of bias and cannot account for all periodic local conditions, seasonal variation, or abnormal individual specimens or strains that maybe adapting to local conditions.

We are still always dealing with estimates…
Yes. His are more from the area that the browns were taken from. Mine are more Muskegon south as well although I mated for 2 summers in Manistee and would fun fish it quite a bit. I'm not out there nearly as much anymore but have many charter captain friends that are daily and talk to guys for a living about it. You get to get a pretty good idea of what's going on and who has a clue. Not to sound bad but a lot of guys have next to 0 clue about what they are doing on the big lake. They think the same guys get "lucky" every time they go. Comes down to a TON of people gave info to the dnr and were told lies or not whole truths to keep them happy then 💯 opposite would happen than what was told. Including the brown program that literally makes zero sense of any kind at this point.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
Well, Chris, I fish ALOT and have most of my life, beyond having an MS in Fishery Biology, working as a fishery research biologist for a decade on the Great Lakes prior leaving to work in the private sector. I am currently on my fourth Great Lakes boat. I did have to take a break back about fifteen years ago to deal with a Nodular Melanoma diagnosis, courtesy of decades on the water.

The studies are submitted to be published in scientific journals and analyzed by their editorial boards for content, accuracy, and overall adherence with current standards prior publication. Science, and the Scientific Method rely on evidence to support a contention, with the validity of that hypothesis receiving sequential support as subsequent studies confirm the original hypothesis, or contradict it. Consequently, science and scientific evidence relies on contradictory evidence to advance Human understanding of a biological or physiological process. Science IS real-world evidence, a point completely lost on you.

I recently caught a couple of segments of Michigan Out-of-Doors that contained a panel discussion with four charter captains from the Ludington/Pentwater area. These guys had no understanding whatsoever of the Coded Wire Tag studies, how the data were used to alter chinook stocking numbers and port location based of those plants to limit stocking at ports that the CWT data indicated that fish survivorship was low or non-existent. This was followed by several comments of "politics" influencing stocking decisions. Not a SINGLE one of these local charter captains referenced attending the Michigan Sea Grant coordinated spring Lake Michigan Fishery Update meetings that have been held either at the Holiday Inn in Ludington or the Community College annually for years, nor did their comments reflect their attendance. These four individuals lammented that the MDNR did not reach out to them periodically to get information and updates on 'what was going on' prior going on to completely misrepresent forage fish status in their pronouncements on the fishery.

Chris, when you have no base grasp of the science side of fishery biology and fish populations, time on the water...is just passing time...on the water.
You are absolutely 💯 👌 everyone should bow down lol. You just provided the exact example of what I just had said thank you lol.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
I have found by reading through a variety of past fishing related threads that a percentage of anglers, including guide services, refuse to participate or provide incomplete information to census takers or voluntary submissions.
Are professional guide services required to submit a creel census from their clients?
I bet most people that refuse to submit useful catch information fall into the "conspiracy theorist" category.
Where here have you ever read that?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
Search the Saginaw Bay and the cold water forums. At least 3 die hard, never reporters and at least 2 charter boat captains. Walleye and salmon fishers. Just talk with pier fishermen, ditch fishermen and trollers, you will find that most think those census takers are screwing the anglers and the DNR don't care about the anglers and have their own political agenda.
Been on here since 04. Never read that.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
You haven't looked very hard or have blinders on. I can name at least 4 posters, 1 is a guide that are adamant about telling the DNR nothing. They report frequently. You HAVE to know people that are anti DNR and Sea Grant.
Ok so name them. It started as 2 now its 4. Big difference between anti dnr and that. I am very anti against the way a lot is done and the lies. Anti about giving Info only have stocks pulled. All charter captains turn in a lig book so doubting what you are saying.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
Put some effort into it.....look for yourself, actually look in the mirror. They are out there in plain sight. Hell, there are more than 4.
I think the charter boys have to report monthly, lets get real, it's what they report. Honesty is not the best policy for some.
We beat this horse to death.....your in denial!
Maybe you just think the dnr can do no wrong? And anyone that doesnt agree is a conspiracy theorist lol. You can't name them because they aren't there. Your numbers change every post lol. I may not agree or like half the crap they have done but I bet I've been at A lot more dnr meetings and shared a lot more actual info just like every charter captain than you have. I have an opinion and ask questions because i care Bout the lake and dont sugarcoat or look away because they are goverment. I'm sure legit captain is going to jeopardize his living because he doesn't like the dnr!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
This is from the Great Lakes Fishery Commission's most recent Lake Committee meetings presentation from the Lake Michigan Committee.
It's a very interesting overview of Lake Whitefish population trends and recruitment through time, as well as inter-lake comparisons between various lake basin sub-populations. It also provides a summary of whitefish fishery status and trends in Treaty of 1836 waters of Lake Michigan over the duration of the 2021 Consent Decree agreement.

I will let Chris83 provide his summary view and interpretation from a 'real world" perspective.


Keep in mind, a Federal Court judge mandated a tentative agreement by December 23, 2021 for the current Consent Decree negotiations. NO update has been released to-date from the involved parties.
Thanks for the brown trout information!!! At least one person likes to hear you talk!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
I am sorry no one instilled an interest in continual learning in you over the arc of your life via your education. Willful ignorance within our society is a huge issue on many fronts, particularly as we wallow along in this pandemic. In the end though, it is just that, a personal choice, made individually that no one else is obligated to correct or coddle
Lol. Why aren't you the head of all of this stuff or work in our fisheries anymore man. I mean dang you know literally everything. You are perfect in every way that is amazing.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
No, not perfect, but fully functional.
I don't misconstrue typing as 'talking', I don't use emoji laden "text speak" as a means of communication, and I don't use LOL as a punctuation mark throughout a barely legible stream of hate speak.

Have you actually posted anything that wasn't a condemnation or criticism of someone else's behavior on this website? Yes, one of us is dysfunctional, but that guy is the one looking back at you in the mirror.
Funny that you of all people says that. You insult anyone that doesn't agree with your blabbering. I actually fish. I hunt and I do it a lot. I have make my living in the outdoor industry. But according to you that means nothing. The 100s of browns I cought over the years that they were not being cought supposedly means nothing. The boats that id see on. A daily basis doing the same means nothing. Because it wasn't in your study.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
Yes, I disagreed with your contention that whitetail deer face the same impacts from predation from canids and winter severity in Region 3 as Region !. I doubt if I am an outlier when it comes to that perspective. Why? AS I stated Region 1 has greater winter severity and duration, as well as both coyote and wolves as canid predators, IF you found those comments insulting, so be it. They are both accurate and supportable and not drawn from subjective personal contentions.

Now, take another shot at saying something coherent... I do grasp your contention, but the summary conclusions you are drawing and attributing to me are all your own insertions without any actual discourse, since nowhere in this thread have you offered ANY comments on your fishing experience(s) for brown trout. How can I respond in the manner you attribute to me without any exchange of perspective. Yet, per your assessment I have. Interesting, but still pointless.

Caught, not cought. I didn't says anything, just as I did talk via typing in your previous screed. I am insulting? You were the one who made fun of me when I said I was on my fourth Great Lakes boat, yet I am insulting. You have continually opted to engage in personal attacks directed toward me in each exchange. Yet, I am insulting. You exhibited the same behavior toward Mr. Casey that you state I engage in; no double standard there.

I don't know what 'I have make my living in the outdoor industry' translates to in English or the overall relevance of your contention as it relates to credibility, since it makes no sense. It is consistent, though.
Lol. What the hell are you talking about corky?
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top