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what if its not about whats more effective or easier or what if its about just what people want to use - preferance. There are limits lol. Arrows for archery season, bullets for firearms season. Who cares what wingits oxford dictionary says, the categories make sense for people who have reasoning skills.
Let me know when you're going to start using your skills. oops, lol. Honest now...you think archery should just be about what people want to use? Incredible. The limits get stretched to beyond recognizeable. To me, not having to draw and hold, is beyond. A quantum step. It is what it is, it's here, in MI anyway. Most reasons fall short though. Except wanting easy. And more range.
 

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No it does. To me the real topic is when is enough enough? Or is something ever too much?


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What is the management goal firstly.
Then , what is the management goal in the amount of time desired to be near the goal?

There's a balance between getting it done and milking out the amount of time recreationally to do so.

What compounds are to you (vs crossbows and todays topic of airbows) is what the compound was to those of us hunting with recurves and longbows when compounds came out.

We just came off a four on a side antler requirement.
Archery is a good season to get a poke at the better bucks. Per the taxidermist and some hunters opinions.
But still , a hunter intent on one or more of those better bucks is hunting on tags. And will continue (the committed will anyways) as seasons progress and method of take options become firearm.
Yes they can stick to archery only. Many go to a centerfire near me though.

Thing is....Regardless of method of take ; two hunters with a pair of tags each can pretty much finish the years seasons where I hunt and the surrounding properties by taking out the limited 2.5 or older bucks. More though , those kills will really matter on the following years kill choices if older bucks is a / the goal. Regardless of method of kill allowed. Home turf efficiency with experienced hunters means eventually the right spot right time coincide.
And hunters outnumber those older bucks by a generous margin. With the greater A.P.R. they did...

Archery gear becomes too effective (and I'll argue it takes more than a given weapon to be effective still) then how to manage hunter kills?
I'll go back to arguing that the method of managing bucks should be by annual quota's based on what exists preseason measured against goal. Regardless of method of take.

Neighboring hunters pre and during and post the A.P.R. realize buck numbers are finite. And not everyone is going to kill one. Math does not support one buck per hunter. Let alone one older one.
Half of hunter numbers scoring would still be a stretch if any buck was legal. That does not match hunter goal / interest in buck age.
Multiple hunters continue to not kill a buck , by choice. Not drawing a tag would be a sting , but when you're already going seasons at times without killing one , it's not all that different.
Of course the odds of seeing an older buck when not having a tag hint of seeing one you'd shoot if you could...

IF all neighboring hunters went to an airbow , I wouldn't expect much to change in annual kill rates beyond one or two bucks possibly being killed sooner than regular firearm. Unless using an airbow somehow caused them to lower thier standards in kill choices.

But , better to ask states where airbows are allowed what's going on there vs prior to get a better idea.
 
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Has anyone even stated this? You are starting argue split hairs like Pescy, lol.
It's okay that you choose a xbow. Feel better?


This is silly argument for any weapon. I would bet more deer are lost during firearm season then any. The shear amount of lead in the air would tell you that. Besides there is no way to prove unrecovered animal numbers/percentages with any weapon. JMO.
Don't know why it's a silly argument. Your statements may or may not be true, I don't know. But it seems logical to use what gives you best odds at recovery. Responsibility is a personal issue.
 

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What is the management goal firstly.
Then , what is the management goal in the amount of time desired to be near the goal?

There's a balance between getting it done and milking out the amount of time recreationally to do so.

What compounds are to you (vs crossbows and todays topic of airbows) is what the compound was to those of us hunting with recurves and longbows when compounds came out.

We just came off a four on a side antler requirement.
Archery is a good season to get a poke at the better bucks. Per the taxidermist and some hunters opinions.
But still , a hunter intent on one or more of those better bucks is hunting on tags. And will continue (the committed will anyways) as seasons progress and method of take options become firearm.
Yes they can stick to archery only. Many go to a centerfire near me though.

Thing is....Regardless of method of take ; two hunters with a pair of tags each can pretty much finish the years seasons where I hunt and the surrounding properties by taking out the limited 2.5 or older bucks. More though , those kills will really matter on the following years kill choices if older bucks is a / the goal. Regardless of method of kill allowed. Home turf efficiency with experienced hunters means eventually the right spot right time coincide.
And hunters outnumber those older bucks by a generous margin. With the greater A.P.R. they did...

Archery gear becomes too effective (and I'll argue it takes more than a given weapon to be effective still) then how to manage hunter kills?
I'll go back to arguing that the method of managing bucks should be by annual quota's based on what exists preseason measured against goal. Regardless of method of take.

Neighboring hunters pre and during and post the A.P.R. realize buck numbers are finite. And not everyone is going to kill one. Math does not support one buck per hunter. Let alone one older one.
Half of hunter numbers scoring would still be a stretch if any buck was legal. That does not match hunter goal / interest in buck age.
Multiple hunters continue to not kill a buck , by choice. Not drawing a tag would be a sting , but when you're already going seasons at times without killing one , it's not all that different.
Of course the odds of seeing an older buck when not having a tag hint of seeing one you'd shoot if you could...

IF all neighboring hunters went to an airbow , I wouldn't expect much to change in annual kill rates beyond one or two bucks possibly being killed sooner than regular firearm. Unless using an airbow somehow caused them to lower thier standards in kill choices.

But , better to ask states where airbows are allowed what's going on there vs prior to get a better idea.
Waif I understand your point here I do. To me compounds are traditional. I was born in 91. Its all ive ever known or been brought up around. So I do understand the culture shock aspect.


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Only noise I’m hearing is from the same crowd that wants the woods to themselves all season.
You realize the people who would likely use an airbow also very likely already hunt, right? Nobody is pushing anybody out of the woods.
 

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To me, enough would be when the projectile is no longer a broadhead on a shaft with stabilizing vanes. And I do feel there should be a velocity limitation to maintain a range that is a responsible shot no further than say... 50 yards. I understand some people can go further even with vertical bows but those are exceptions not the norm. The distance is somewhat arbitrary but seems reasonable to me. If we are going to maintain a 1.5 month long season plus late seasons, keep it to short effective range.

How much someone needs to practice or does practice is on them.
This to me is a huge deal. Have a fps limit. 50 yds is even good. (40 better) Starting to bend, real rainbows after that. A lot of bickering would quiet down. jmo
 

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Why worry about what somebody else is doing, if you want more difficult, go to a recurve.

Using you’re logic, you’re a hypocrite if you don’t go to a method more difficult than you’re currently using, like a recurve
You missed the point. I'm not telling anyone to change methods. It would be hypocritical to have an issue with new technology if you yourself have used new technology, that's all. Most archers today use crossbows which is new technology as far as archery season in Michigan is concerned.
 

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Waif I understand your point here I do. To me compounds are traditional. I was born in 91. Its all ive ever known or been brought up around. So I do understand the culture shock aspect.


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And it's good you understand compounds. Are they enough? Hearts I've cut using one says they are.

As you know then ,after proper form , accurate range estimation , and knowledge of target position relative to shot opportunity , combined with your own personal limitations you can shoot within reasonably accurately ;you are just getting started in hunting.

A compound is no miracle in gaining hunting skills. And without familiarity with one through practice and muscle memory (and hey , even eyes can change in an off seasons time) it is less a jumping ahead of a more traditional / older method.

Yes there is some benefit for some by using a compound. How that detracts from someone using a longbow or recurve might depend on more than who kills what ; and be more about the aesthetics of the experience.
I can understand why noncompound users are not enamored of thier use. But when my recurve was stolen I bought a compound. And it was not easy to shoot. Going to sight pins meant changing my anchor point after over a decade of anchoring at the corner of my mouth.
Try quitting that!

We went through concerns of tradition out the window with the original blackpowder season proposals evolution into something far removed from the original goal of old arms (or thier very near copies) and the methods and limitations of using them. For history's sake..
Histories of the guns , thier builders ,thier users . And thier efficiency. Be it greater or less than modern arms.

I'm not outraged. But when modern blackpowder substitutes and guns gained traction folks were skipping right past the more "traditional" arms I and others would have had them shoot first. Just so they understood the history personally.
Plus , those hundreds (a tiny minority yes) of us shooting regularly were seeing better accuracy due to that regular use compared to many centerfire rifle users who didn't practice . Didn't care that precision in knowing limits at given ranges matters. Or worse , didn't understand deer are not paper targets.. (My opinion anyways.)

Method is not a substitute for the efficiency in knowing a method of takes limitations and being on the right X at the right time. Keeps me from considering an airbow. But who knows if they became legal if I'd find a use?
Might not have to worry about hitting something with a limb or something. Is that worth several hundred dollars?
Not exactly going to create more shot opportunities though if I'm not where I should be. At the right time.
 
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We don' t shoot fish with a rifle. We catch them with rod, reel and hook.

Whales on the other hand - are TRADITIONALLY harpooned by hand or cannon - with a tether line. You see - a whale is not a fish - like a deer - it is a mammal.......

Soooooooo....

Wouldn' t it be TRADITIONAL to use a deck cannon (blackpowder for muzzleloading season) and a harpoon to whack whitetails??? Tethered - you wouldn' t lose many.


Or - how about using a fighting chair and some sweet corn on a big treble hook ? ? Can you imagine the fight a 200 lbs buck would put up???? It' s make that marlin you got on vacation look piddly in comparison.....


(/satire)

(^^^^^^ for the really clueless^^^^^^)
 

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If state’s DNR’s were allowed to manage the game, rather than corrupt politician wannabe managers, none of this BS would be an issue. What a joke.

Won’t be long until Michigan’s deer regulations are as liberal as the Southeast states like pathetic GA, AL, MS, LA & TN 3 month rifle seasons. They don’t just have BAD management. They have NO management. It’s why all I see is plates from these states in our Illinois public lots all November. I live 15 minutes from the MI state line and would not dream of wasting even one day of the rut there.
 

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I know my self imposed limits due to practice , combined with live targets not being practice.
My effective range may well not be the same as yours.
And folks out West in some areas would grant a near bug eyed stare to know my compound limits are a fraction of theirs.
That's fine with me. But putting a range limit on a hunter from areas where double or more times my distance limit is not unknown , is rather limiting to them.

Depending on where in Michigan , upping the kill (if an airbow could contribute) would suit the state just fine.
Speed or range or effectiveness matter? Or just more deer being killed as the reason to allow them ?
We could toss in participation hours. Tag sales too.
I won't lose sleep over it regardless.
Archery kept ahead of firearm season still holds. Anyone wanting to participate due to wanting in on kills before firearm would have another reason if airbows were legal.

For feedback , there are 10 or more states airbows are legal in. Interviewing a broad enough cross section of hunters and wildlife personnel should conclude if the sky is truly falling on thier archery seasons or not where airbows are allowed.
Of course individual capabilities widely vary.

But the range of an arrow is << the range of a centerfire rifle.

I'm not suggesting legally limiting how far you are allowed to shoot. Restrict the weapon to the point it makes a semi-responsible hunter hesitate to shoot.
 
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