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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just exactly how much in sales do farmers expect when the legal limit has been 2 gallons of bait? A 100lb bag of corn should last most hunters all year. One bag of carrots should bait some 3 stands.

Isn't it more like farmers were supplying the ILLEGAL baiting market, with a wink and a nod? Bait is for sale everywhere now. Expect, baiting isn't even legal until Oct. 1.

The farmers have no leg to stand on. They've been providing 50 times the produce needed for illegal baiting and it goes on with a wink and a nod. Maybe Sheltron should mandate than all bait be sold in 2 gallon increments? I wonder how many beets will sell when you can't buy it by the truckload dumped in with a scooper?

One big pile of beets should last a store most of the season, Since 2 or 3 big beets will hit the legal limit. Selling beets by the scoop could provide a township with legal bait.
 

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I thought previously, prebaiting ban, you could start to bait Sept 1.:confused:
 

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Don't blame the farmers trying to make money. With or with out bait the hard core hunters will still hunt but the casual once or twice a season guy may give it up if he can not bait and the state-the farmer-bars-sporting good stores etc loses that money. And I personally do not hunt over bait.
 

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Just exactly how much in sales do farmers expect when the legal limit has been 2 gallons of bait? A 100lb bag of corn should last most hunters all year. One bag of carrots should bait some 3 stands.

Isn't it more like farmers were supplying the ILLEGAL baiting market, with a wink and a nod? Bait is for sale everywhere now. Expect, baiting isn't even legal until Oct. 1.

The farmers have no leg to stand on. They've been providing 50 times the produce needed for illegal baiting and it goes on with a wink and a nod. Maybe Sheltron should mandate than all bait be sold in 2 gallon increments? I wonder how many beets will sell when you can't buy it by the truckload dumped in with a scooper?

One big pile of beets should last a store most of the season, Since 2 or 3 big beets will hit the legal limit. Selling beets by the scoop could provide a township with legal bait.
Well, I can see your point, but does it really have merit? If a guy throws in a food plot and he has no intention of harvesting it for sale.....what is he doing? Feeding deer, right?

Throw in a 20 acre plot of beans that are sitting there with no intention of harvesting, is just feeding deer...the DNR intent is for us not to feed deer, correct?

Not being funny Bob, just trying to make a point.

You guys argued with me over how you cannot regulate or write a law to regulate farming and thus could not write a law to regulate food plotting. Isn't this kind of the thing I was talking about?

If it is illegal to bait and it stands, I would think that next year the farmers would not plant as much since the demand has gone down, that would make business sense to me. I agree, if there is not a mechanism in place legally, the demand would probably still be there and in turn I could see that farmers growing this stuff would be defacto poachers. I do see the merit in what you are saying, however you are really getting out on thin ice, because if you start to regulate what can and cannot produce you very well could put food plot guys (including myself) into the corner that was so violently fought out in the other thread.
Right?
 

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The farmers can sell their corn and sugar beets else where. Carrots are the only thing that would present a problem. Just dont grow carrots. No you could not start baiting Sept 1.
 

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Prior to the CWD ban, you could use the bait that is for sale year round, as long as you are abiding by the recreational feeding rules. I know lot's of people up here, especially retiree's, that don't hunt but keep corn out for deer in their backyards all the time, just so they can watch the deer. I get a kick out of how some on this board are gifted with magic powers that allow them to "know" other peoples motivations. So the guy that buys a 50 lb. bag of corn in August is automatically an illegal baiter, huh? :rolleyes:

It's also kind of amazing how many anecdotal stories we hear about guys walking through the woods seeing multiple illegal bait piles made up of hundreds of pounds of bait. Here is a challenge for all of you guys, start carrying a camera with you in the field. If you find an illegal pile, post a picture of it here. If you don't want to call the RAP line then I'm reasonably certain that a number of members here would be happy to. Then maybe we can determine whether there are actually thousands of illegal bait piles out there or whether it's just conveniently unverifiable rhetoric that's used to try and whip up a frenzy by the anti-baiter's. ;)
 

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Isn't it more like farmers were supplying the ILLEGAL baiting market, with a wink and a nod? Bait is for sale everywhere now. Expect, baiting isn't even legal until Oct. 1.
Are you seriously blaming farmers for something? You think its the farmers job to limit people to how much bait they buy? I can hear it now "Wow son, werent you in here last week buying a bag of carrots?" I'm gonna swing by Chase Farms next weekend and ask to speak with their ethics manager about this situation.;)

I hear a lot of talk on these forums, but I have never in my life seen anyone with a protest sign where they sell bait by the truckload.


Ryan
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Since the TB outbreak, one could only start legally baiting outside the TB zone on October 1 and I believe baiting ended Jan. 1. You could not bait in September, as in baiting tree stands.

My point is, the reason for possibly lifting the ban has nothing to do with deer management, but only for monetary sales. And the largest portion of those sales are based on illegal activity. With recreational feed sales, you are limited to 100 yards from your residence and it's a 2 gallon limit. Those sales should stay fairly constant year round.

So how does that explain the sudden and massive increase of pallets full of carrots, beets and bagged corn at gas stations that weren't there Jan. 2 until around mid-August? With a 2 gallon recreational feed limit, I think we can make a leap on figuring out the guy that starts buying 6 bags of carrots starting in August or September.

Any proposal to bring back baiting due to farm sales is largely based on illegal activity inflating the farm sales of carrots, corn and beets. If you take into account all the crop "harvest" being used as illegal bait now, even if there was no ban but due to an Oct. 1 start, then add all the overbaiting that occurs by violating the 2 gallon limit, probably 80-90% of bait sold is used illegally. Oh yeah, don't forget all the farmer produce being used illegally in the TB zone.

Is this what we want to promote as the main reason for reinstating baiting?
Not only is the gross sales of bait inflated by illegal activity for farmers, but most sales on the retail end are due to an open flaunting of breaking the rules.

If baiting comes back, the only reason should be that MDNR says the benefits of more baiting hunters staying in the sport and not dropping out due to a ban outweighs the risk of disease spread due to bait.
It should not be based on periphery sales.

The decision to bait legally again shouldn't be based on keeping farmers sales of produce high, when those regular past sales are artificially inflated due to overwhelming illegal use.

If anything, a better calculation would be to look at how many deer hunters bait. What is it, 60%? So, roughly 400,000 deer hunters bait. Of those, 50% likely hunt about 3 days a year. So there's 200,000 regularly baiting. Since they can only have 2 gallons on the ground at anytime, not placed per day, even if they have multiple bait sites, the amount of bait that all the baiters would require to remain legal would be a fraction of what is actually sold in the state.

The amount of money that Rep. Sheltron is claiming would be lost would be based on hunters grossly violating the 2 gallon at anytime, only Oct. 1-Jan. 2, no TB zone law.

Trust me, before the TB bait laws (current before the ban) and before the TB laws, my store sold bait. The main reason we stopped selling was due to all the violating. The average guy came and bought 3 bags for $10, but lots of guys bought $20-$30 worth of bait. And at one time, we sold just as much in September as any other time. Virtually all of that bait sold before say Sept. 20 was almost certainly used illegally. The only way it'd have been legal is if a guy set his carrots off by the side of his cabin in the warm September heat and let them sit in the bags for 10 days, then put them out on 2 gallon increments.

We finially decided that we couldn't be a part of this and stopped selling deer bait.

I could also make the conclusion that the vast majority of this bait was being used illegally because often the guys coming in often bought a license too. But 3 guys coming in, laughing and joking about deer season, buying tags, often in camo even before the season and getting $30 worth of bait looked to me that they weren't putting out only 2 gallons under their cabin bird feeder. That's just my guess, but I made my livelyhood by doing a pretty good job of sizing guys up as soon as they walked in the door.

Let's just be honest and admit that the 2 gallon limit was grossly violated. As was the Oct. 1 start date. And the Tb zone ban. So, to base total farmer sales on mostly illegal activity and to justify bringing back baiting to prop up those illegal sales, with even a mild threat of CWD just holds no water with me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Soggy, anyone with a food plot isn't complaining about economics. I have a lot of money in my plots. Between fertilizer, manure, seed, time, etc. If MDNR comes out in the coming months as says don't plant because they have some new research, I won't plant. And I won't complain about the $1000's I've essentially lost.

Itchin', the reason for possibly reinstating baiting is specifically for places like Chase Farms to keep their bait sales high. So, do you feel OK about a line up of 5-10 pickup trucks, all day, all buying brimming truckloads of carrots, and keeping Chase Farms sales high, as THE justification of bringing bait back?

What are the odds al those guys buying huge truckloads full aren't only taking 2 gallons out for baiting and the making soup with the rest?

It's a very lame justification to me.

But as I mentioned, the only way to swallow this pill would be if it was absolutely certain that there was a full LP ban right around the corner. No later than Jan. 2. If the NRC allowed it for the next 3 months, giving time for places to sell existing stock, I'd live with it. But my fear is, that they'll allow baiting again until the next CWD deer is found.

If we get the state to apply a Jan 2. 2009 LP ban, forever thereafter, and crank fines up to $1000 for a violation with loss of weapons, trucks, hunting rights, etc, if caught hunting over bait or with a dead deer in the vehicle taken over bait, something like a jacklighted deer from a vehicle at night, I would sign onto it.
 

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If we get the state to apply a Jan 2. 2009 LP ban, forever thereafter, and crank fines up to $1000 for a violation with loss of weapons, trucks, hunting rights, etc, if caught hunting over bait or with a dead deer in the vehicle taken over bait, something like a jacklighted deer from a vehicle at night, I would sign onto it.
I think you are out to lunch on this. Seriously, 1,000 dollar fine with loss of weapons, truck? Consider the violation before cranking up the consequences here. As far as some how trying to blame farmers, supply equals demand. If hunters did not buy bait, they would not plant crops intended for bait. People are loosing their minds over this bait issue. And the problem is going on both sides of the baiting fence. Take a deep breath and resume using common sense!
 

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As was previously stated much of the bait went to recreational feeding which wasnt limited to oct 1. Alot of older people kept out feed year around to view wildlife.
 

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Just exactly how much in sales do farmers expect when the legal limit has been 2 gallons of bait? A 100lb bag of corn should last most hunters all year. One bag of carrots should bait some 3 stands.

Isn't it more like farmers were supplying the ILLEGAL baiting market, with a wink and a nod? Bait is for sale everywhere now. Expect, baiting isn't even legal until Oct. 1.

The farmers have no leg to stand on. They've been providing 50 times the produce needed for illegal baiting and it goes on with a wink and a nod. Maybe Sheltron should mandate than all bait be sold in 2 gallon increments? I wonder how many beets will sell when you can't buy it by the truckload dumped in with a scooper?

One big pile of beets should last a store most of the season, Since 2 or 3 big beets will hit the legal limit. Selling beets by the scoop could provide a township with legal bait.
Bob, from what I am reading do you have a bone to pick with people making a living off of others? Isn't that they way the world goes round? Your ideas of bait being sold in 2 gallon increments is, not trying to be offensive, but, its insane. Thats the same as limiting a person to buying only one arrow at the sportshop because they only have one lic. to use. Why would a person need more than one since they can only shoot one deer right? Don't tell me its different because a person needs to practice and sight in their bows either because that one arrow is sufficient enough to get the job done. Does the arrow statement sound ludicrous? If its a yes, then go reread what you previously posted.

Anyways to go on about the bait being everywhere you look, here is the deal with it. A lot of these places have pre purchased this product and now they are stuck with it. Believe me I know, I am sitting on 10k worth of baiting products between feed, feeders, minerals, etc. At this time vendors are not attempting to work with anyone to buy this product back, they don't want it, so these places have to do something with it besides throw it away. The next best thing to do is to attempt to sell it and recoup some of the losses. Aren't you, or were you a store owner at one time? Or do I have you confused with soeone else. If so, put yourself in the shoes of others for once, and imagine if you had some dollars tied up inventory that couldn't be sold due to a state regulation change.

Also, farmers and retailers can survive a baiting ban easily, only if the ban was to take effect during the off season. As of now these guys have crops in and their survival depends on this deer season to get by the winter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I'd rather have the fine be $2000. $1000 is light IMHO
It's a very easy rule to follow and the only way you can break it is is if your REALLY want to break it. You have to buy the bait, sneak it in and then place your stand right over it.

In Illinois, baiting is a Class B misdemeanor. By the IL code, baiting is similar to selling game, hunting deer after dark, hunting on a highway, destroying animal dens, shooting across a highway, using a silencer, using dogs to hunt deer, having a rifle in deer season (IL is shotgun/ML only), etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Tubejig, you miss the point. There is no law about how many arrows you can use.
The bait sellers have every right to still sell their stock. If people want it for soup, stew or to collect odd shaped carrots, they can.

The question is, should the sale of a bait that will likely be used illegally enough of a reason to bring it back?

Nobody seems to be interested in the long term harm to the deer herd. They seem more interested in the economic status quo.

The bait ban will bring some small hardships to some and some large hardships to a few. What do you think CWD in wild deer, with larger herds and baiting will do to the hunting economy?

Or should we just wait until that day comes to make the changes?
 

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you are making a very large assumption when you say that most bait being sold is used for illegal activities........i hunt stateland in a very populated area and since the bait has went down to 2 gallons i havent seen an illegal bait pile in the woods......i think your assumptions that most baiters are doing it illegally is absurd and holds no water at all. It is complete stereo typing.
 

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Bob, thankyou sir, I must have taken what you wrote differently from the way that it was intended. My bad for that. As you know arrow sales and bait sales are both still legal.;)

To attempt to answer your first question and not be biased I have to say yes and no. Yes, if CWD is found outside of the hotzone. No, if its not.

My question, not to you, but in general, where are we at with the testing right now with the animlas the state wanted to take and test? Man is that question confusing, but anyways. If outside of the hotzone, no positive tests are found in the next month, where are guys like myself, other retailers, and sportshops going to be?

To attempt to answer your second question is impossible because neither you nor I have ever been through CWD before. All that we actually have is the info that is given from states like WI, so as of right now I have nothing for you. I can speculate, just as you, and could say that its not doom and gloom like most people think. Its a disease that we need to learn more about, and once we do, we will have a better understanding of its effects. Kind of like aids, you probably rememeber a number of years ago when people thought it could get caught off of toilet seats, and the world wanted to wear rubber gloves. Thank goodness for magic johnson.:lol: My ramblings are done, I will answer your question. It will hurt everyone economically, from the government all the way down to the earth worm.

To answer your third question, NO.

On a side note, I still believe I owe you buckshot pattern with my 10 ga.
 

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You have no idea whether or not bait bought in bulk will be used legally or illegally. Some guys may have a dozen different stands on several pieces of property that they regularly bait from Oct. through Dec. You could easily go through a 50 lb. bag of carrots a week and be perfectly legal. I don't hunt over bait very often but I regularly use it for my deer cams and I will usually go through 2-3 bags of carrots, 5-6 bags of apples and a couple of bags of sugar beets during the course of the fall, all put out in perfectly legal quantities. If you saw me with all of that loaded in the back of my pick-up, why would you assume that I'm intending to illegally bait with it? I think your making a whole lot of unfounded assumptions driven by your personal feelings about hunters using bait.
 

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I'd rather have the fine be $2000. $1000 is light IMHO
It's a very easy rule to follow and the only way you can break it is is if your REALLY want to break it. You have to buy the bait, sneak it in and then place your stand right over it.

In Illinois, baiting is a Class B misdemeanor. By the IL code, baiting is similar to selling game, hunting deer after dark, hunting on a highway, destroying animal dens, shooting across a highway, using a silencer, using dogs to hunt deer, having a rifle in deer season (IL is shotgun/ML only), etc.
Illinois has CWD right? Or has had it pop up here and there, correct?

They don't bait either, correct??:16suspect

How the hel did the deer get the CWD then? How is it still be transmitted then with a ban on baiting???????

Couldn't have something to do with the current problem they have with too many antlerless deer could it?????

Maybe too many food plots propping up artificial deer numbers?:16suspect

Why did Wisconsin back off of their baiting ban with CWD???? We do look to them as a better hunting state.....right?????:cwm27:
 

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You have no idea whether or not bait bought in bulk will be used legally or illegally. Some guys may have a dozen different stands on several pieces of property that they regularly bait from Oct. through Dec. You could easily go through a 50 lb. bag of carrots a week and be perfectly legal. I don't hunt over bait very often but I regularly use it for my deer cams and I will usually go through 2-3 bags of carrots, 5-6 bags of apples and a couple of bags of sugar beets during the course of the fall, all put out in perfectly legal quantities. If you saw me with all of that loaded in the back of my pick-up, why would you assume that I'm intending to illegally bait with it? I think your making a whole lot of unfounded assumptions driven by your personal feelings about hunters using bait.
Bingo, Munster pm me for your prize! Best dang post on this thread.
 
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