[ninjatoth]

Michigan law 769.4a and CPL's?

I have a MCL 769.4a dismissal that was dismissed 17 years ago, and although I am pretty familiar with how all of that works, and confirmed the fact that I may possess firearms(I have purchased many firearms though FFL's(NICS) and pistol purchase permits(LEIN) with no problems in recent years), my question is more about CPL's.

Does this dismissed charge affect the outcome of a cpl qualification? I understand that before the gun boards were eliminated, that they could have denied me based on opinion, but now that they are gone, are there any others in authority that could deny me a CPL based on a 769.4a dismissal, based on opinion that it would indicate violent behavior?

I have applied for the CPL already and answered every question truthfully, the only grey area questions pertaining to my situation are:
1. Whether i'm federally prohibited from possessing firearms- which I truthfully answered no(i'm not convicted to my understanding) and
2. Whether I been convicted of domestic violence in the 8 years prior to application- which I truthfully answered no because this wasn't a conviction to my understanding, but even so it was over 8 years ago.

Is my concern justified or am I just being OCD about this? Thanks for any response.

 

[Petronius]

OCD is correct. If there was no conviction, then there is nothing to worry about.

 

[ninjatoth]

OCD is correct. If there was no conviction, then there is nothing to worry about.

This is pretty much my thought as well, it's just hard knowing that the county clerk and state police are indeed going to see that non-public record, and I guess my worry is that maybe they would misread whatever the file says or maybe I don't understand the law enough about this kind of dismissal. When the law uses terms like, "is still a conviction for purposes of(referring to if you repeat the same offense)" yet also says terms like "this is not a conviction for.." It becomes very confusing and makes my mind wonder off, wondering if there is more to this. I hope there isn't, and it's cut and dry no statutory disqualifications in the same way all my purchase permits and long gun purchases went right through.
Thanks for the quick reply.

 

[Petronius]

I don't think it matters since only actual convictions and current indictments are looked at. Don't worry about it.

 

[ninjatoth]

Let me ask you this (my charge was 12-4-97 and my dismissal was 4-2-99) ; In 2009 I had decided to purchase my first firearm ever, a pistol. When I was at the police station applying for a pistol purchase permit, I was initially denied, and the officer working came out and told me why - she told me because of domestic violence in 1997. Before I left the police station with no permit in hand, she called me back in and said something along the lines of "wait a minute, there is a note on your file, I don't understand it so i'm going to call the court house where this domestic violence charge is originating from and find out." Long story short she says that it was "supposed to be taken off of there in 1999". So my question is, do you think that this was just error in reading my file(which is what i'm afraid of happening again and being denied) or do you think that my record was open for public inspection for an entire 10 years after it was supposed to be closed to public inspection?


Also I wanted an opinion on the last part of my record file. It does not say 769.4a anywhere on it, but it does mention "spousal act"

04/02/99
Petition and order for discharge from probation generated
all counts
miscellaneous action all counts
XXXXXX(judge name)
Under advisement
sentence $250
Dis. from probation---spouse abuse
case made non-public
miscellaneous action all counts
case closed
1. miscellaneous action domesticviol
previous disposition set aside/caseload reopen
dismissed under spouse abuse act
1. miscellaneous action domesticviol
dismissed
dismissed under spouse abuse act
case closed
04/06/99
miscellaneous action all counts

 

[sparky18181]

There is a written trail of all convictions at this time that are computer generated when your name and date of,birth are entered. If for some, reason there are mistakes, you can get this corrected. Yes it will be a hassle to go to the court you originally were charged in but that data will be there. As has been said above, a dismissal is not a conviction. Good luck

 

[Petronius]

If you were able to get a pistol purchase permit and pass the federal NICS background check, you would be OK.
You can do a Criminal History Records search through ICHAT to learn what has been reported and if this action is still listed. This is available through the Michigan State Police web site. I would then contact the court that this originated from if it is still listed to find out how it can be taken off. I am not sure but it is possible that it needs to be reported even though there was a dismissal. A dismissal should wipe out a conviction.

https://apps.michigan.gov/ICHAT/login.aspx?ReturnUrl=/ICHAT/BackgroundSearch.aspx

https://www.michigan.gov/msp/

 

[ninjatoth]

If you were able to get a pistol purchase permit and pass the federal NICS background check, you would be OK.
You can do a Criminal History Records search through ICHAT to learn what has been reported and if this action is still listed. This is available through the Michigan State Police web site. I would then contact the court that this originated from if it is still listed to find out how it can be taken off. I am not sure but it is possible that it needs to be reported even though there was a dismissal. A dismissal should wipe out a conviction.

https://apps.michigan.gov/ICHAT/login.aspx?ReturnUrl=/ICHAT/BackgroundSearch.aspx

https://www.michigan.gov/msp/

I have done an ichat search a couple of times, once about 6 months ago and once again a few days ago, I had to pay $10 each time I did it. It returned no results both times. I have looked up my name on the county courthouse search and i'm in their system, but it only shows my divorces and whatnot. Now when I went down there a couple of days ago, they were able to open a non-public record(with the deferred judgement dismissed) by presenting identification showing that I am looking at my own non-public file, and from my understanding only law enforcement and myself can look at it, and from my understanding the only reason that it can used against me is to prove whether I have taken advantage of this one time deal, or if I wanted to become a police officer or something of the like myself, then it could have some disability on a decision about me.

But as it stands now, I have confirmed that it is non-public.

 

[Petronius]

Apply for another purchase permit. That should tell you if there is still an issue with this situation.

 

[ninjatoth]

I mean I worry about stuff like this, especially knowing that now it's 100% up to the county clerk's discretion and no one else once they get the background reports. But you would think that they probably won't even look twice at the file and maybe not even open it considering not only that I show no flags in NICS and it's well over 8 years old of a case. I mean if it never met the federal definition of DV and it's an 18 year old case, it shouldn't even be anything at all.

 

[ninjatoth]

Apply for another purchase permit. That should tell you if there is still an issue with this situation.

I have gotten like 15 purchase permits between 2009 and 2013 with no issues. I haven't used the purchase permit process since they eliminated the need to when buying pistols from FFL's.

 

[Redbad]

Keep in mind that the County Clerk does NOT have discretion in either approving or denying a CPL application. MSP runs the criminal history on you and if you are flagged under MCL 28.425b, the application will be administratively denied. MCL 750.81(a), domestic violence, is a grounds for denying your application if the conviction was within the last 8 years. The MSP will look at both public and non-public records when they do the search.

The Appeals process for a CPL denial also is much more difficult: you will need to file a case in the Circuit Court for your county, pay the appropriate filing fees, hire a lawyer, etc. This will not be a simple process.

 

[ninjatoth]

I have done the purchase permit a bunch of times like I was saying, and purchased long guns and handguns from I believe 4 different FFL's over the years, one of them being Walmart lol. Other than that very first issue on my first pistol purchase permit, I haven't encountered even a delay. I usually hear FFL dealers always repeat "proceed?" back to the NICS within literally 90 seconds.

 

[ninjatoth]

oes NOT have discretion in either approving or denying a CPL application. MSP runs the criminal history on you and if you are flagged under MCL 28.425b, the application will be administratively denied. MCL 750.81(a), domestic violence, is a grounds for denying your application if the conviction was within the last 8 years. The MSP will look at both public and non-

Well I certainly hope that it does not come down to a denial and appeal. I am 100% qualified based on all questions on the application, and a dismissal is not a conviction for domestic abuse, so unless some unforeseen event takes place like my fingerprints erroneously match some crime scene somewhere, or Obama makes up some new law to flag me on NICS simply for receiving SSA disability, than I should be alright.

And the 8 years thing, all I was saying is that if NICS does not flag DV convictions(which it should not) than the date alone on my record for DV, either a conviction or dismissal(by Michigan definition), shouldn't even be looked at seeing that it's 18 years old.

 

[ninjatoth]

One thing that I do wonder about though is, I hear horror stories about people being denied based on that they plead guilty to either a felony(any crime) or misdemeanor DV charge, and even though their case may be dismissed, that it could still be looked at as a conviction, because pleading guilty to something is in some eyes of the law as being a conviction.

Now in my case, considering that the Federal government obviously has no record of this charge/dismissal, and seeing as I have never been flagged by the NICS, I can safely say that I do not have any DV conviction that meets federal definition.

If that is the case, would this now mean that the timeline of no convictions of DV 8 years prior to application date would apply in my particular case and cover me?

 

[Petronius]

MCL 769.4a will only come into play if you were to be convicted of MCL 750.81 or MCL 750.81a, in which case you are screwed. Look at MCL 769.4a(5).
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(qc...leg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-769-4a

 

[ninjatoth]

MCL 769.4a will only come into play if you were to be convicted of MCL 750.81 or MCL 750.81a, in which case you are screwed. Look at MCL 769.4a(5).
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(qc...leg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-769-4a

The way I understand it is that the judge writes it up, takes your guilty plea but does not sign it as guilty unless you don't fulfill your end of the deal, and after you are done with probation or whatever, the judge throws out everything including your guilty plea and never signs a judgement of guilt, but the case has to be kept on record to prove that you already used your get out of crap free card in case you repeat the offense, and to make you nervous enough to not pull the same stunt again in life. Figuratively speaking.

769.4a(5) clearly states " Upon fulfillment of the terms and conditions, the court shall discharge the person and dismiss the proceedings against the person. Discharge and dismissal under this section shall be without adjudication of guilt and is not a conviction for purposes of this section or for purposes of disqualifications or disabilities imposed by law upon conviction of a crime"

It seems about right to me in how my original purchase permit got denied, then to be granted in the same day based on calling the court about a file that "was supposed to be fixed" or whatever the lady at the police station told me that day, and that made my purchase permit go through. I mean, if there was something on my record that was an issue, I don't see it likely that they would have been handing out purchase permits like candy to me to turn around and say there will be an issue with a cpl. One day at the police station, the lady was like "you again? why don't you just get your cpl so you don't have to keep getting these purchase permits, I mean there's nothing on your record and i'm looking at it right now so why don't you just apply?" I told her I wasn't going to yet and here's why -

I informed her that I had anxiety that was considered a "mental illness" and didn't want to get denied by a gun board by checking yes, nor did I want to lie and go to jail for lying by checking no on the old cpl application question "do you have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made regardless of whether you are receiving treatment for that illness?"

But since the new updated cpl application says this, I have applied with no worries and no doubts whatsoever in checking NO to this question : "do you have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made THAT INCLUDES AND ASSESSMENT THAT YOU ARE A DANGER TO YOURSELF OR OTHERS, regardless of whether you are receiving treatment for that illness?" The old application and new application use the same wording and sound similar, but their definitions are not even close to one another. The old application would have statutorily denied almost everyone with some form mental or emotional abnormality, as where the new application is more or less clear that you must be a nut job(excuse my French) to be denied on a mental health basis(other than legally forced commitments etc)

 

[ninjatoth]

I just had a "duh" moment as I found the case disposition on the front page of the nonpublic file I requested, so if there are any legal windtalkers out there, could you tell me what this means in layman's terms? Thanks

COUNT 1 C/M/F: M 750812 PACC#750.812
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
ARRAIGNMENT DATE: 12/05/97 .... PLEA ......PLEAD GUILTY ......PLEA DATE: 03/05/98
FINDINGS: DISMISSED ..... DISPOSITION DATE: 04/02/99
SENTENCING DATE:
FINE COST ST. COST CON MISC. REST TOT FINE TOT DUE
0.00 0.00 5.00 0.00 245.00 0.00 250.00 0.00
JAIL SENTENCE: - PROBATION: -
VEH IMMOB START DATE: - NUMBER OF DAYS:- VEH FORFEITURE:-

 

[Petronius]

I just had a "duh" moment as I found the case disposition on the front page of the nonpublic file I requested, so if there are any legal windtalkers out there, could you tell me what this means in layman's terms? Thanks

COUNT 1 C/M/F: M 750812 PACC#750.812
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
ARRAIGNMENT DATE: 12/05/97 .... PLEA ......PLEAD GUILTY ......PLEA DATE: 03/05/98
FINDINGS: DISMISSED ..... DISPOSITION DATE: 04/02/99
SENTENCING DATE:
FINE COST ST. COST CON MISC. REST TOT FINE TOT DUE
0.00 0.00 5.00 0.00 245.00 0.00 250.00 0.00
JAIL SENTENCE: - PROBATION: -
VEH IMMOB START DATE: - NUMBER OF DAYS:- VEH FORFEITURE:-

Basically, you pled guilty and did your probation. When you completed the terms of the sentence, probation and fees, the conviction was dismissed. All is good unless it happens again, in which the original case will be used against you. Don't over neat yourself up over it, it is in the past.

 

[ninjatoth]

The whole situation just sucks. I was 17 in 1997 when it happened. Another family member and I had it out back and forth, minor physical struggle(not instigated by me) leading up to me shoving the family member away from me, I honestly shouldn't have even been arrested but when you admit that you shoved someone away from you, and the other person don't admit anything that they may have done- yeah, lesson learned.