[scott kavanaugh]

I went to this web site(CWD-INFO.ORG) and asked a question(s) related to cwd and food plots and if any studies were in progress. Here is his response:

B&N great job- Here's my question. Don't we have any DNR folks that went to school at Michigan. Why do we only have a MSU biologist running around wanting to ban baiting? If we're going to overreact and err on the side of caution, I guess it's up to the baiters to get this valuable imformation to the NRC & DNR about the dangers of plots.

Being that were leading the country in safety an all, according to QDM and Dr. Miller, wasn't it?

 

[swoosh]

I did!!! Ball is in your court!

You were forced too
Baiting has been proven to spread disease, TB proved that, you knew and you still baited. pot meet kettle

So since you have such a grave concearn for the health of the herd, Why did you bait last 10 years? When you knew it help Spread TB?

 

[.480]

"Baiting has been proven to spread disease, TB proved that,"

Show me the hard data backing that statement up.

Without all of the : "Possibly, could, might, thought to, chance etc...." phrases left out of the findings.


I have never read anywhere that anyone has ever said that baiting was the reason for tb or cwd.

 

[swoosh]

"Baiting has been proven to spread disease, TB proved that,"

Show me the hard data backing that statement up.

Without all of the : "Possibly, could, might, thought to, chance etc...." phrases left out of the findings.


I have never read anywhere that anyone has ever said that baiting was the reason for tb or cwd.

Never stated baiting was a "reason". I stated baiting helps in spread disease.

My point is B & N and POZ are hammering guys for what they have been doing the last ten years.

We all knew baiting could help spread disease, yet even with these facts and herd comes first mentality of these two, they still baited. I would like to know why? If they are going to call me and others out, I am fine with that, but at least be able to back yourself up.

How much money has B & N spent and POZ on the health of the herd out besides license fees?

Do they belong to any organzations? Like whitetails forever? What have either of them done the last ten years to help the health of the herd?

This is what I have done

60+ acres planted in CRP for habitat and cover.
Focus on shooting more does to help bring down deer herd in our DMU. Did I mention we are under goal

Worked with DNR to restore wild turkey in are area. We went from 0 to a flock over 125

Planted food plots for deer and turkeys. Turkey plot being the biggest, Sunflower, Sorgrom, buck wheat.

All this done with my own money, own time. Investment was made to impove my hunting, it was also made to improve hunting in future also.

I have made an investment in our land, to impove the deer habitat and turkey habitat.

I ask again, Why if D & B and POZ who knew baiting could cause the spread of disease in their hunting area, and they have the herd health as their number 1 priority did they continue to bait?

 

[Rancid Crabtree]

I thought I would share this with you since it applies to this topic. Here is the question.

Hello Brian, I have a question that is currently a hot topic on several internet discussion boards. What are the current suggestions for dealing with food plots for whitetails? Specifically, I would like to know if the planting of 1/8 to multiple acre plots of clover, corn, soybeans, etc. is viewed in a negative manner re: CWD transmission? In other words, is food plotting viewed in the same negative light as is baiting and feeding? Thanks

The answer:

Difficult to answer your question.

We know that saliva from late-stage CWD+ animals is infectious. We know that respiratory secretions from TB+ animals are infectious. We also know that these infectious materials remain viable for prolonged time periods. We know that a bait pile tends to congregate artificially high numbers of animals to the same spot. So, if an infectious (shedding disease agent) animal visits a bait pile, there is ample reason to believe that infectious material would be left at the bait site for subsequent animals to ingest. And because the bait pile is small (relatively speaking), if additional animals visit the bait pile, the odds that they will be exposed are pretty high.

Without the bait pile, a CWD+ animal will still be shedding infectious agent into the environment where it will persist for some period of time. But will another animal (1) encounter the infectious agent and (2) ingest enough infectious agent to become infected? Maybe, maybe not. There is ample reason to believe that some CWD+ animals never infect additional animals. But if you artificially promote contact between the diseased and others, you greatly enhance risk.

The take home message from this is that anything that results in artificial congregations of animals increases the risk of disease transmission (assuming that some quantity of infectious agent is present).

Now, what about a food plot?

If a CWD+ or TB+ animal visits a food plot, how much infectious material does it leave behind? Hard to say, but more than likely enough to infect other animals.

And what are the odds that other animals will be exposed to that infectious material? The odds may be lower with a food plot than a small bait pile, and would depend on several factors, including: - how large is the food plot? - how many infected animals visit the food plot? - how long do the infected animals stay there (how much infectious material do they leave behind)? - how many other (healthy and susceptible) deer are visiting the food plot? - how often do they visit the food plot? - how long do they stay at the food plot?

But the odds of disease transmission at a food plot are still most likely higher than if the food plot was not there. From this perspective it would be hard to argue that a food plot is much more than a large bait pile (in the fact that both are designed to attract deer to a known location).

Another way to look at this is from a different angle.

What are the consequences?

Clearly the consequences of TB are pretty steep. Part of this comes from the fact that TB can spill back and forth between livestock and wildlife.

And what about CWD? Available research suggests that CWD does not affect domestic livestock or human health (or at least has not to date). So we're talking primarily about impacts on deer. And the verdict is not in on that yet. What we know: - CWD is contagious, always fatal, etc. to deer. - CWD seems to spread quite easily between deer. - CWD prevalence can get pretty high (~35% prevalence in adult male hunter-killed deer [combined white-tailed and mule deer> in a substantial geographic area of Wyoming). - There aren't a lot of documented instances of successful CWD management in free-ranging deer populations.

In other words, CWD is not good for individual deer, is not good from a population perspective either, and once you have it established in a free-ranging population, you will probably not ever get rid of it (at least nobody has yet).

So, is the risk, however slight it may be, associated with food plots worth it? Only the states, and the stakeholders in the states, can answer that question. States that have banned baiting have taken a stance and identified that the risk associated with this practice is too great. To my knowledge, no state has banned food plots. But maybe this is due to the fact that it would be almost impossible to clearly delineate/enforce what a food plot is and is not (is it a food plot, a garden, or a field?).

Hope this helps.

Bryan J. Richards Chronic Wasting Disease Project Leader USGS National Wildlife Health Center

---------------------

Bryan was also on the WI CWD advisory committe that I was on.

 

[poz]

I ask again, Why if D & B and POZ who knew baiting could cause the spread of disease in their hunting area, and they have the herd health as their number 1 priority did they continue to bait?

You state that the DNR has not yet asked for food plots to be banned. I admited I have hunted over bait, food plots, farm fields, etc. mostly I don't hunt over bait now. But I did and I might again someday. But I didn't hunt with bait in 452 I followed the laws the DNR had for us at the time.

But, the attitude you have now is the same one that you don't like about us. You keep saying we knew baiting spread disease, yet we still did it, isn't this what you are doing now. The evidence points that foodplots possibly could contribute to the spread of this disease and your attitude is the same as ours, we won't stop until the DNR bans it. So welcome to the club.

As far as what you have contribute to the health of the herd, I commend you.

The difference between us is that My hunting property has CRP, farm fields, woods, swamp. A healthy herd, Average bucks shot are 3.5 to 4.5 years old. The only difference is I call it what it is, a place where my partners and I can shoot large deer, We don't call it QDM and say we are doing it for the herd. we are honest about it.

 

[jafurnier]

Having moved here from Ohio and having hunted whitetails extensively in IA, KS, KY, OH, WV, and yes...MI, I must say the MI deer hunting scene leaves me with a sour stomach. Why? We constantly fight and argue over a resource that is so poorly managed...that we never get around talking about the way it could be. As soon as someone recommends any change...this state explodes with controversy. Most MI hunters have no clue what lies outside MI borders. It really is disappointing.

Now...with regard to some of the many comments made by various posters:

First...about me:

* I support QDM. I no longer take pleasure in shooting the second dumbest deer in the world (a 1-1/2 yr old buck). The only deer dumber is a button buck. I would rather - and do - shoot a doe. But this is me...if you want to do it...have fun. It's a free country. When I was a kid and just got into hunting...shooting a spike or a button buck was just as exciting as my last 150" deer. We should not take that away from people.

* I have, when it was legal, used truck loads of bait. From a hunting method standpoint, I don't care if baiting is legal or not. To each his own. I like hunting over plots. If baiting were still legal, I would do that too.

* I now own 40 acres and have 8 acres of food plots spread over my property. So I am a big food plotter. Planting them and shooting a deer over them is more rewarding than shotting a deer over a bait pile. Also, spring in MI is a killer for me. After the long winter...getting out on my tractor has proven to be a great remedy for winter blahs.

My questions...

1) Can someone show me where the "QDMers" are fighting to keep food plots like baiters are fighting to keep baiting legal? So far, all I still read focuses on planting and maintaining food plots. There are a very few articles highlighting the downside of baiting and the upside of food plots, and factually they are correct. Bait piles are more dangerous from a herd health standpoint than bait piles. (That doesn't mean though plots don't have their downsides too.)

2) Bait piles versus food plots. Comparing a bait pile with a food plot is like comparing a MIRV intercontinental ballisric missle with a .22 caliber single shot. They both fly through the air and kill but beyond that they have very little in common. But having done both extensively, I find that:

a) Yes...they both attract deer, but it takes a huge plot to pull in the same numbers of deer as to a truck load of bait. I gurantee it will take 1 -2 acres of plot to pull in the same number of deer as a single truckload of bait. My friends that used to bait entensively also learned what I have learned through experience. And...if you think a 10' x 10' food plot will attract a deer...your kidding yourself.

b) Food plots do not congregate deer in the same density as bait. Yes, both might increase the probabilty of deer congregating and thus increase the chance of deer sharing disease. But how can anyone genuinely argue that a 2 acre food plot concentrates deer the same as a truckload sized pile of food? Not only that, but how can one argue that biting off a leaf creates the same risk of disease as 3 deer chewing on the same beet or carrot? Again...both bait and plots congregate deer, but not in the same density.

3) Food plots mimic natural feed locations. By their very nature, deer are gregarious in the fall. They congregate at the best food sources. That fact cannot be changed. Watching deer feed, they either browse along a trail...or congregate in some food rich area - mast trees, cuttings, fields, etc. Which mimics the natural habits of deer more - a bait pile or food plot? My standing corn, my fields or rape and clover force the deer to spread out. I would agree that food plots might incrementally increase deer concentration...but the benefits to general animal health would seem to me to outweigh the slight increase in risk.

You know...I wish they would not have banned baiting. But they did. But to turn around and start whining that they should now ban food plots is childish. To start crying about QDM...that too is childish and fueled by a general lack of knowledge. If you ever hunt a state or property that has a quality herd...you would change your mind. There are guys at work that sound just like half of these posts, when I ask if they have ever hunted a managed property or a good deer state...they all same the same thing...No. Which makes me wonder, how credible are their arguments?

Take a deep breath folks...

 

[beer and nuts]

I answered your question swoosh, but thats not good enough for you!?!?

Congrats on swoosh on what you have done for your pleasure...pat yourself on the back...not sure why you had to brag about what you did, but hey if it makes you feel accomplished than great.

At what point do people have to do something along the lines of qdm and food plots to say they are doing things for the health of the herd...OK...thats your belief in your management style...not mine. I shoot what I think is neccessary for that year..too many does, I'll buy a doe permit.....I hunt the woods as they are whether clearcut stateland, oak, swamps....I don't feel its neccessary to cut down midstage forests on my private to plant rye fields, nor do I have the time and money...I do way too much with other hunting/fishing and kids school activities...I do better than most in hunting around here without getting all excited about how others hunt. the herd is healthy...as been for generations around here....TB came from cows and cwd came from out west....

I told you...I quit baiting...now what have you done to help stop the spread of cwd??

hey jafurnier...welcome and only your second post. You gusy have got to stop the truckload baiting stuff....that so 1990's....very rare anymore where a landowner is dumping truckloads...weak arguement.

But how can anyone genuinely argue that a 2 acre food plot concentrates deer the same as a truckload sized pile of food?

We don't nobody has but you!? Now replace "2 gallon bait pile" with your truckload and it starts to make sense to you...doesn't it?? Or can you have another excuse!?

Food plots do not congregate deer in the same density as bait.

Thats pretty general statement and in lots of cases that i have seen...actually not true.

 

[Munsterlndr]

You know...I wish they would not have banned baiting. But they did. But to turn around and start whining that they should now ban food plots is childish. To start crying about QDM...that too is childish and fueled by a general lack of knowledge. If you ever hunt a state or property that has a quality herd...you would change your mind. There are guys at work that sound just like half of these posts, when I ask if they have ever hunted a managed property or a good deer state...they all same the same thing...No. Which makes me wonder, how credible are their arguments?

Take a deep breath folks...

Welcome to this site, now let me ask you a few questions.

Ever planted root crops in a food plot? Pretty common practice in Michigan. Your assumption that food plots are always of the leaf variety and that bait is always beets or carrots is simply faulty. Root crops planted as food plots allow the multiple deer that congregate in the plot to share the food and create identical conditions for the transfer of disease as the same crops utilized in a bait pile. Beets or turnips are not magically consumed by just a single deer when planted in a food plot. In contrast, broadcast shelled corn in the two gallon limit, presents a much lower opportunity for nose to nose contact or shared saliva then do root crops planted in food plots.

Sorry, your MIRV to .22 analogy just does not hold up in the real world and is typical of the hyperbole that many food plotters utilize to justify their actions.

If you are putting in 8 acres of food plots on your property you are substantially increasing the carrying capacity of the available habitat in your area. It's indisputable that CWD poses a greater threat of being transmitted in areas where deer densities are higher. Please educate me on how you are not contributing to the potential spread of CWD by maintaining a higher deer density in your area, then would normally be supported by unimproved habitat?

And for the record, I'm a QDMA member and a food plotter. I'm also intellectually honest enough to recognize hypocrisy on the part of many who condemn bait yet refuse to recognize that food plots offer an almost identical potential for facilitating the transmission of CWD, as baiting does.

 

[ridgewalker]

Pretty soon they will consider cutting all the trees so there are no bedding areas and we will have to hunt desert or grassland. Oops grass might be considered baiting. If the deer starve except for ag areas there is no more need to discuss cwd spread, except that all the deer will be congregated in the farm fields. The farmers will enjoy that.

 

[beer and nuts]

Hey ridgewalker, come on up around my area, they already are cutting all the trees!! I know its hard to believe but deer survived just fine waaaayyyy before baiting and food plots....nature does just fine without us 100% of the time!

 

[oldrank]

You lost me with the truck load of bait comment Jafurnier.......Just like most of the other food plotters you cant tell the truth.......And that is the whole thing that turns the mainstream public off to QDM guys......they preach and preach but really they are just spinning in circles ......trying to prove how much better a food plot is then a bait pile......and they cant even tell the the true story....they inflate statistic....they inflate the fact that 2 gallons was the legal limit not a "truckload". Try to imply that all baiters are poachers because they all use over the legal limit.......stick with the facts and ya'll might get a few more people to be interested in your cause.......

 

[jafurnier]

Where in my post did I condemn baiting or baiters?

Just because I plant food plots and believe food plots are safer than baiting, do you automatically believe I think baiting should be illegal and that I don’t like baiters?

If baiting were legal, I would still do it. If there were no regulation on quantity, I would certainly use more than two gallons. I do not support the DNR ban on baiting. If I supported anything, it might be a ban on penned deer! (Oh no…now the hate mail from the deer growers association of MI.)

In terms of justifying my food plots…I don’t have to justify anything to anyone one. I plant them for me and the wildlife that uses them. (Call me selfive for doing something for me.) The crazy thing is…I rarely kill deer over them! 3 deer in three years. Planting them has more to do with me hating MI winters and needing a spring hobby than anything else. The rabbits, turkeys, and song birds that utilize my plots provide more recreation for me than the deer.

I will say this…I hold to my belief that baiting is not as safe as food plots. The deer that use my plots spread out over a much larger area than they ever did when I baited…even when I spread it out over a large area. Why...its simple math...I don;t have anymore deer than I used to,,,but they have to scratch out a living over 8 acres instead of a smaller baited area. To me...it only makes sense that bait is less safe. But just as in my first post…I chose my words carefully. I used relative terms and not absolute terms. I never said food plots posed no risk. They probably do. How much less risk plots are relative to bait…I know of no scientific studies, but it has to be substantial.

All this being said...I think the whole CWD thing is blown way out of proportion. I think both bait and plots are not putting the MI deer herd at risk.

So after all of our typing…I think if you read my posts carefully, we agree on the whole baiting issue with one minor exception…the relative safety of bait over plots. And even there, since I don't buy the whole sky is falling sales pitch from the DNR, even this point of contention should be moot.

 

[oldrank]

I also believe that baiting is not as safe as food plots but only in the regards of the TB issue......When talking about passing laws that have to do with CWD I believe it will make little difference.....They can make all the laws they want.....its not gonna have any positive effect on slowing the disease.....But I also believe it is more an issue of the root cropswhen it comes to overall spreading of diseases, because we know that both diseases are spread through saliva.......Using a corn spreader with a 2 gallon a day limit would reduce the threat to the same as any food plot....in my opinion.......The only thing they accomplished by banning baiting this year was to put a knife in the back of Michigans economy.

 

[swoosh]

I also believe that baiting is not as safe as food plots but only in the regards of the TB issue......When talking about passing laws that have to do with CWD I believe it will make little difference.....They can make all the laws they want.....its not gonna have any positive effect on slowing the disease.....But I also believe it is more an issue of the root cropswhen it comes to overall spreading of diseases, because we know that both diseases are spread through saliva.......Using a corn spreader with a 2 gallon a day limit would reduce the threat to the same as any food plot....in my opinion.......The only thing they accomplished by banning baiting this year was to put a knife in the back of Michigans economy.

I agree, now are we going to mandate corn spreaders, and since MI hunters have such a great track record of following baiting laws the 2 gallon limit should be easy:lol:

 

[swoosh]

You state that the DNR has not yet asked for food plots to be banned. I admited I have hunted over bait, food plots, farm fields, etc. mostly I don't hunt over bait now. But I did and I might again someday. But I didn't hunt with bait in 452 I followed the laws the DNR had for us at the time.

But, the attitude you have now is the same one that you don't like about us. You keep saying we knew baiting spread disease, yet we still did it, isn't this what you are doing now. The evidence points that foodplots possibly could contribute to the spread of this disease and your attitude is the same as ours, we won't stop until the DNR bans it. So welcome to the club.

As far as what you have contribute to the health of the herd, I commend you.

The difference between us is that My hunting property has CRP, farm fields, woods, swamp. A healthy herd, Average bucks shot are 3.5 to 4.5 years old. The only difference is I call it what it is, a place where my partners and I can shoot large deer, We don't call it QDM and say we are doing it for the herd. we are honest about it.

Dude my sig use to say
"I practice QDM to shoot big old bucks":lol:

I have 3 CRP field, but no swamp , but a river bottom.

In bold it is not my attidude at all, I am pointing out how some did the exact same thing that now you are beating them up for.

Now are using "Health of the Herd" Thanks for your honesty

 

[swoosh]

I told you...I quit baiting...now what have you done to help stop the spread of cwd??

You were force too and you still have not answered one question, POZ did
Here it is

Did you bait in the last ten years when you knew it could help spread TB?

Yes or No

I have killed pile of does the last ten years to help reduce the herd in my area. Did I mention my DMU is under goal in the SLP.

I also created 60 acers of deer habitat, this allows deer to spread out more There not all conjested.

I have written NRC, DNR, Govener, and my Rep about the threat of deer urine sold from these farms. I see urine as a huge, huge threat

 

[shorthair guy]

CRP land...
Whats the location? I would like to come help keep the deer number under control. :evil:

 

[beer and nuts]

Of course I did, but even 3 years ago I wasn't informed/educated on the matter like I am now...unlike our DNR who had a "plan" madeup 6 years ago on the CWD matter...way too much new information from WI and other states...and it still coming and I'm still learning. The information we have now, clearly puts baiting and food plots(really I beleive the smaller the worse, the better quality and smaller the worse too) on the same level when it comes to cwd.

10 years ago, were you on the same qdm level has you are now?? Same scenerio. Going back to the past is useless information...the time is now for cwd...so are you active or reactive? I have yet to see you critisize/educate someone on here about deer urine...the cam pic threads are filled with scrape and mock scrape pics where posters are using urine...!?

With the huge explosion inthe last 10 years with foodplots and the last 10 years of cwd being spread from state to state...could there be a link!? Makes you wonder.

 

[soggybtmboys]

B & N, we went round and round and round about this in a thread a little earlier. All that was presented was the same stuff, which really it all boiled down to is 'kiss my rear end I will hunt the way I want to'.......'prove it to me, till then tough'.........'might as well cut down the whole forest then'........'what about a farmer' field'....blah blah blah.

Alot of these same guys were the first ones to shoot off their pie holes soon as the baiting ban came into effect. I think certain types of food plots ought to go, if not most of them.....for all the right reasons. We are sustaining in certain areas, to high of a deer population, and to be honest if the deer are needing the supplemental plots to make it thru the winter, well then Mother Nature has selected those animals for death, and it is natural. Mother Nature is the great equalizer, population increases......predators increase. Still not enough, starvation. That don't get it, then here come the diseases.

Population increase, increase predators.....we shoot and trap those too. Strike 1

Natural food starts to deplete, we supplemental feed or plant winter foraging areas.
Strike 2

Population is still not in check with Mother Nature, well here comes TB, CWD, and a host of other diseases that kill deer.
Strike 3

Mother Nature wins, once again. Think we would have learned long ago, Ma Nature holds the ultimate trump card.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248604