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Your opinion on the crossbow situation.

  • The current regulations are fine.

    Votes: 19 14.6%
  • The disability criteria needs adjusted and they should leave out the age stipulation.

    Votes: 18 13.8%
  • The proposed change is good and keep the 65 age criteria.

    Votes: 23 17.7%
  • Crossbows ARE archery equipment and should be included for everyone in the archery season.

    Votes: 70 53.8%
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The following is taken from the Horizontal Bowhunter Magazine so it is obviously going to support thier position, however it is interesting to read especially if thier facts are indeed facts.

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CROSSBOWS: MYTH & FACTS

As hunters who pay hunting license fees and game managers whose programs come from those licenses, we are blessed by the ability of the whitetail deer to adjust to the continued encroachment on its habitat by man and still multiply. If it I were not for the far sighted sportsmen who preceded us and insisted upon scientific management practices, most modern deer hunting today would be very costly and conducted on preserves, behind high-fences.

However, this magnificent animal’s ability to multiply, coupled with conservative management practices, have resulted in whitetail populations at an all-time high. In some areas deer populations are so high that property damage as well as safety and health concerns have arisen. The game manager’s job today is rapidly becoming more sociological than biological. Heaped in the middle comes the issue of creating a new opportunity with a new and misunderstood hunting tool – the crossbow.

MYTH: Crossbows are a poacher’s tool.

FACT: Crossbows, like vertical bows, have short range capabilities, are too cumbersome to discharge from a vehicle, and kill by hemorrhage, not shock. Where legal, violations are minimal. If crossbows were efficient poaching tools their use would be wide-spread by game thieves. The poachers weapon of choice is still the .22 caliber rifle.

MYTH: Crossbows are unsafe.

FACT: Based on thirty years of statistical data, accident rates involving crossbows are identical to those of vertical bows. Both, considering hunting hours involved and numbers of hunters, are considered among the safest forms of hunting.

MYTH: Crossbows are too easy to shoot.

FACT: Experienced rifle shooters can expect to quickly achieve tight arrow groups on targets up to forty yards (the effective hunting range of a crossbow). Is that bad? Isn’t accurate shot placement the goal of all ethical hunting? Does the difficulty of shooting a bow accurately deter people from participating in bowhunting? However, to be successful, a crossbow hunter must master all skills and tactics common to bowhunting.

MYTH: Crossbow hunting will squeeze other hunters out.

FACT: In states where lengthy crossbow seasons, crossbow hunting is popular. However, no other season or bag limit has ever been reduced as a result of crossbow hunting being permitted. Where permitted, the crossbow does not discriminate in favor of the physically strong. It enables a wider range of sportsmen (women, professionals, youth, and older hunters) to enjoy the challenges of bowhunting.

MYTH: Crossbow hunting will wipe out the deer herd

FACT: In states with generous crossbow seasons, the success rate of crossbow hunters and vertical bow hunters are virtually the same and the deer populations continue to flourish.

MYTH: A crossbow is much more efficient than a vertical bow.

FACT: A modern 150# draw weight compound crossbow delivers the same speed and stored energy as a 65-70 pound compound vertical bow. The crossbow requires twice the amount of draw weight because the power stroke (draw length) is half as long as that of the compound bow. If both types of bows launch the same weight arrow at the same speed, how can a crossbow be more efficient and does the deer really care?

MYTH: The crossbow controversy creates division amongst sportsmen, and the public image of crossbows makes proposed hunting with them counter to the sportsmen’s interests.

FACT: Where permitted, crossbow hunting creates NO controversy except that created by a few individuals who deem themselves and their chosen method of hunting as superior to all others. The public image of crossbows stems from the lack of knowledge of a crossbow’s limited capabilities, as well as the myths touted by those who oppose their use. The TRUE controversy and tragedy of the crossbow issue stems from the time, effort and money spent by so called conservation-minded bowhunting organizations to deny others the opportunity to hunt rather than promoting the virtues of bowhunting to the public.

MYTH: There is an independent study which dramatically shows the superior capability of the crossbow (and its development) over the vertical bow.

FACT: This study is about as independent as a study on the need for sport hunting by P.E.T.A.. The study was commissioned by the Anti-Crossbow Committee of a national bowhunting group. Its author is a member of that group. Much of the hypothetical development of hunting crossbows and the limiting physical factors which prevent such development in vertical bows within the study have already been proven erroneous. It is the purpose of the game regulations by the state to control what advances in technology are suitable for sporting use. No state permits the use of machine guns and handheld rockets during deer rifle season!

MYTH: Because it is not hand-drawn and released, the crossbow is more closely compared to a firearm than a vertical bow.

FACT: Opponents to the crossbow often quote an apples and oranges comparison when voicing this smokescreen. The vertical archer, if they are a sportsman/bowhunter, prior to ever going into the field hunting spends hours and hours working on the physical conditioning required by drawing, aiming and shooting their chosen tool – nothing mystical, just physical work. Once the season starts, the act of drawing, aiming and shooting (especially with high let-off compounds utilizing a triggered release aid) is no more difficult for a vertical bowhunter than a crossbow hunter. Movement is required by both (one to draw back the other to raise the crossbow into a shooting position) to obtain the target at an average of less than twenty yards. Both hunters must be accomplished woodsmen to get that close to a whitetail and still mask those necessary movements.

MYTH: Nobody wants crossbow hunting except the crossbow manufacturers.

FACT: In Ohio, crossbow hunting has been permitted for thirty years and the Ohio Division of Wildlife endorses crossbow hunting and the opportunity it creates enthusiastically. Currently there are more hunters participating in the archery season using a crossbow that are using a hand-held bow. These licensed, legal, law-abiding sportsmen in Ohio are commonly the target of slanderous, erroneous and often untruthful attacks from bowhunting groups opposed to crossbow hunting. Many Ohio crossbow hunters also enjoy shooting with vertical archery tackle.

MYTH: Just because crossbow hunting has been a success story in many states like Ohio, Arkansas and Wyoming we don’t want it in ours. All the bowhunters of “our” state and all of “our” enforcement officers are opposed to it.

FACT: The crossbow is a challenging but effective short-range, single-shot hunting tool which offers additional hunting opportunity and recruitment to hunting ranks. If such an option in not considered advantageous by the sportsmen and game management agencies within the state, then the huntable wildlife resources of that state are not being managed to maximize opportunity for MOST citizens. The sportsmen’s cause and the future of hunting in that state are therefore at risk. Recruitment to hunting ranks should be the goal of ALL game managers and sportsmen. As long as the hunting tool falls within logical parameters of safe, capable and humane harvest capabilities, such recruitment should not be based upon, “do it my way or you can’t do it at all.” How can any organization which represents such a small percentile of the total number of archery tag purchasers in a state be so presumptuous to speak for all bowhunters and deny others? Does not their small total membership compared to the large number of archery hunters suggest perhaps they do not represent the views of the majority?

FACT: It is a fact confirmed by agency statistical data in crossbow hunting states that there are vastly more hunters (or potential hunters) who choose or would choose to hunt with a crossbow than those who oppose them.
FACT: Crossbow hunting is documented as safe, responsible and popular where permitted, and has no ill effect on wildlife resources or any other group of sportsmen – other than self-perceived. Ohio ranks the crossbow as a major recruitment tool for women, youth and professionals. The crossbow hunting opportunity does not create division amongst sportsmen – quite the opposite, it gives the firearms hunter a hands-on perspective of the challenges of archery hunting. The REAL concerns surrounding the crossbow hunting opportunity is the concept that there’s no room for recruitment to hunting ranks unless the tool used is one based upon the emotional, purism standards of a few. Wildlife resources should be managed for the most opportunity for most citizens/sportsmen, not for a select few. Facts, not emotion, document the crossbow hunting opportunity as positive for sportsmen and game management programs everywhere it is available for use.


http://www.horizontalbowhunter.com/news/news.asp?ID=114
 

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:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Geez, it must be true because someone printed it somewhere. Never mind that it was published by a group with a vested, economic interest in one position of the other. :eek: :eek:

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
One Eye said:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Geez, it must be true because someone printed it somewhere. Never mind that it was published by a group with a vested, economic interest in one position of the other. :eek: :eek:

Dan

That is why I wrote:
NoWake said:
The following is taken from the Horizontal Bowhunter Magazine so it is obviously going to support thier position, however it is interesting to read especially if thier facts are indeed facts.
I hope people who can not control themselves to be civil, will keep from commenting on this thread.

Every crossbow topic doesn't need to be locked or deleted. Maybe it is time to punish the offenders rather than silence a completely valid topic.
 

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NoWake said:
That is why I wrote:


I hope people who can not control themselves to be civil, will keep from commenting on this thread.

Every crossbow topic doesn't need to be locked or deleted. Maybe it is time to punish the offenders rather than silence a completely valid topic.
Couldn't agree with you more however, don't get your hopes up. This poster is notorious for his "sea-gull methodology" specifically; swoop in, squawk, crap on everything and, swoop out! First, he tries to attack the facts. When that doesn't work, he attacks the messenger. When both of those eventually and inevitably fail, he seeks affirmation from his misguided brethren. Now, even they see the folly of his ways and let him hang out there embarrassingly and shamelessly alone.

My advice; simply forgive him for he knows not what he does.
 

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Everyone can use a crossbow here in ohio and we have fantastic hunting with lots of BIG bucks. I hunt both Michigan and Ohio, I prefer the hunting in Ohio because the quality of the herd is much better.
 

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3006 said:
Everyone can use a crossbow here in ohio and we have fantastic hunting with lots of BIG bucks. I hunt both Michigan and Ohio, I prefer the hunting in Ohio because the quality of the herd is much better.
Don't rub it in! :lol:
 

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The only advantage I can think of (crossbow vs. vertical) is the need to draw when the deer is close. I think that makes the shot tougher and more exciting. I've had to stop mid-draw and hold more times than I want to think about - but it's pretty exciting. If it were legal for me to hunt with a cross bow, I probably would. But I'm not ready to sign any petitions to be able to use a cross bow...yet.
 

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I knew a man (he's now departed) that was a close personal friend and business partner of Fred Bear. He was a bowhunter's bowhunter and is still respected by those of us that are old enough and well-read enough to know him. He owned and operated an awesome archery shop that was more like a museum, containing momentos from many renowned archers of the world. His list of friends and acquaintences read like a "who's who" of archery. I won't mention his name, but the older archers here know full well of whom I speak.

One day, many years ago, I was with a friend of mine who had killed a nice buck with his bow (maybe his first). We were driving around with the buck in his pickup truck, showing-off to friends. We drove to the aforementioned archery shop because we knew the proprieter and we thought he would be happy for us and show some encouragement to we young bowhunters. During my friend's telling of the story of his hunt, he mentioned that he was hunting from a treestand. The famous proprieter of the famous archery shop said, "Did you say this buck was killed from a treestand?" My friend affirmed that it was killed from a treestand, whereupon the famous proprieter of the famous archery shop shook his head in disgust and walked away without saying another word.

It seems every archer has his/her own idea of what constitutes bowhunting. Every bowhunter I know hunts from a treestand most of the time, but the old-time archer in the story above viewed the practice with disgust. The question for bowhunters today is this: How many people are we going to deny the opportunity and pleasure of bowhunting because they don't do it the way WE think they ought to?
_
 

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Big Redhead said:
I knew a man (he's now departed) that was a close personal friend and business partner of Fred Bear. He was a bowhunter's bowhunter and is still respected by those of us that are old enough and well-read enough to know him. He owned and operated an awesome archery shop that was more like a museum, containing momentos from many renowned archers of the world. His list of friends and acquaintences read like a "who's who" of archery. I won't mention his name, but the older archers here know full well of whom I speak.

One day, many years ago, I was with a friend of mine who had killed a nice buck with his bow (maybe his first). We were driving around with the buck in his pickup truck, showing-off to friends. We drove to the aforementioned archery shop because we knew the proprieter and we thought he would be happy for us and show some encouragement to we young bowhunters. During my friend's telling of the story of his hunt, he mentioned that he was hunting from a treestand. The famous proprieter of the famous archery shop said, "Did you say this buck was killed from a treestand?" My friend affirmed that it was killed from a treestand, whereupon the famous proprieter of the famous archery shop shook his head in disgust and walked away without saying another word.

It seems every archer has his/her own idea of what constitutes bowhunting. Every bowhunter I know hunts from a treestand most of the time, but the old-time archer in the story above viewed the practice with disgust. The question for bowhunters today is this: How many people are we going to deny the opportunity and pleasure of bowhunting because they don't do it the way WE think they ought to?
_
Good post, thanks for sharing that story. One wonders whether your old-archer friend ever visited the famed "Grousehaven", Fred Bears cherished hunting camp. According to Dick Lattimer's biography of Fred Bear, Grousehaven had treestands, including one that Fred hunted out of, which was specifically set up for a left handed shooter, which I believe Fred Bear was. Wonder if the Old Archer would have treated Fred with the same level of disdain. My guess is that if Fred was still alive and in control of Bear Manufacturing that they would be selling crossbows and that Fred would be embarrassed by the actions of many of the so called "traditional" archery organizations.
 

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having to be able to meet fred bear a few times and spend time in his audience, i'll tell you first hand he would without any doubt **SHAME** all of you who would dissallow someone the right to hunt with what ever they wanted. and i personelly heard the man say it at starlight archery watching his hunt films he made! that man and i say MAN may disagree with you but he sure wouldn't deprive anyone the right to hunt period!
 

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Though I don't own a cross bow and most likely never will I support the crossbow hunting for everyone.

ADVANTAGES:
1. More folks can or would take advantage of the hunting times. This equals more $$ for the DNR to take better care of our herd. Is this really only about money? NO, but it sure could help the future of hunting in MI since so many are leaving and we are not adding enough new hunters anymore.

2. Big on my list is the fact that maybe some of the folks using vertical bows will pick up a crossbow and would a whole lot less deer. Accuracy and ease of shooting only enhance the capability of making a good kill shot. You can argue that people ought to practice more with their vertical bow, but that dog don't hunt.

DISADVANTAGES
1.More folks can or would take advantage of the hunting times. This seems to be the primary issue above anything and the fact that bowhunters are not willing to share this 2 and half month season is ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned we ought to be encouraging hunting, not discouraging it.
 

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seams a bit strange that most of us agree to allow cross bows but the nrc does not look to be passing this act into the season. remember we can all say yes on this site but if we don't tell the powers to be that we are for this than we will not be heard and some will miss yet another great chance to spend time with our lord and mother nature. please stand up and be heard
 

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looked at the site and does not look like crossbows had much time on the floor. tb and raising baiting fines was presented more than the crossbow. let see deer number are on the rise in the tb zone we could make unit 452 a crossbow unit and see what happens. alot of older people have places in the area so it would not be putting them out of the way and this would show what effect crossbow hunters will have on the deer population in genral. still makes me shake my head when i hear crossbow are so much better than my compound. these guys need to come to my back yard and see us compound boys shot and bring over a few crossbow i can be 100% sure we will out shoot the crossbow. once you get past 40-50 yards with a crossbow you might want to throw stones your chances are better
 

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I read that DNR meeting crapola.:confused: Gee those macho guys in there. He said ""If he we're disabled he wouldn't bow hunt" and that being the prez of MTB. So I guess in that way of thinking if you become disabled you should give up bow hunting. BS:mad: Not me not now not forever.

Steve bartz demonstarted a tool to assist disabled bow hunters to hunt other than a crossbow. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Gee now that's nice tell me the way I should hunt:rant: Didn't the anti xbow people was whining about the money issue for xbow and some fellow shows up hawking some miracle tool.:yikes: I think boycott MBH
 

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Over the weekend, I was contacted by someone on the inside who has been watching everything unfold here and is also very disappointed that the anti-hunter groups won over hunter opportunity. What I didn't understand, until pointed out, was how tiny some of these anti-hunter groups are. Some barely have 500 members.
I can't believe I wasted time arguing, once I learned that. I figured these groups had 10,000's or at least 1000's of members.
Just goes to show that a few people who show up to every NRC meeting with a letterhead and a low budget website can really impact the vast majority of all sportsmen.
Has anyone ever contacted AARP or disabled groups so that those groups with large membership can counter tiny groups of extremists, for lack of a better word?
Given that some of these groups just argued for and helped block more hunters from hunting than any other anti-group, including the HSUS and the dove vote, we should contact the NRC to make sure no compromise is made to put anti-hunter groups on any commitee's forming hunting rules for all. It'd be like putting an extreme muslim cleric on the board of Homeland Security. IMHO
I wonder if the guy that would have stood up at the NRC to demand a 70% handicapped guy can't use a crossbow even knows that he's more anti-hunter than PETA or HSUS?
Granted, these small groups do dictate policy. But maybe a better plan of action is for all handicapped hunters to simply use crossbows and then if ticketed because they don't meet the current 80% rule, disabled groups should sue over handicapped opportunity/discrimination and let the court system decide fair rules, since the NRC is swayed by only those who stand in front of them and discrimination is still alive for some groups. In this case, a court will serve hunters better than our own NRC. IMHO
 

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As usual its the elietists(sp?) with the bigger vioce. And it will be the downfall of hunting as we know it. Chip away a little at a time.......:help: And they bring discord among the hunters in this state. Heck they don't hardly need to do anything as our own holier than thou hunters will do it to us.
 

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i see most complain about it but lets do something about it. when is the next meeting? we could show a force and be at the meetings ourself. and this makes sence it is our hunting rights that they want so please help me on this issue and get together and be heard. i tried this two years ago for the lowering of the youth huntingand no one else showed up with me. if we are to stand together we can get laws and rules passed as we like. and i know many of us would like to have a few changed. give me a pm and we can work out some detail and maybe just stop by lansing one day to tell people what we as hunter would like to see. and no i do not want to have the state vote on this issue as we have found out we are outnumbered in this state. let get crossbows passed as quikly as possable.

and for all that are wondering i do not hunt with a crossbow i still love to shoot my compounds but for many of the elderly and disable, plus the young ten year olds i see this as away to keep them in the wood and to intoduce a new generation to the woods.
 

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marty said:
I read that DNR meeting crapola.:confused: Gee those macho guys in there. He said ""If he we're disabled he wouldn't bow hunt" and that being the prez of MTB. So I guess in that way of thinking if you become disabled you should give up bow hunting. BS:mad: Not me not now not forever.

Steve bartz demonstarted a tool to assist disabled bow hunters to hunt other than a crossbow. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Gee now that's nice tell me the way I should hunt:rant: Didn't the anti xbow people was whining about the money issue for xbow and some fellow shows up hawking some miracle tool.:yikes: I think boycott MBH
please don't forget mtb. from what i have read they are the biggest and loudest group that try to keep you and your grandchildren from hunting. i still can't see most 10 year olds pulling back 40lbs on a deer plus all the shaking going on. get them started with a crossbow and then they will upgrade weapons to learn and add challanges as they grow. take most turkey hunter will start out with a shot gun, a few will go to a muzzle loader and a bunch will go to the bow.:dizzy: :confused: why would they do that when a shotgun is more effective? becuz they love to hunt and the thrill of these other weapons just draw them in. so you give out a crossbow permit yes some will stick with itfor they are in true need of this. but for those that don't need it will put it aside and go right back or upgrade to a bow. as i say you could take my gun season from me but go after archery season and you might as well declare war.
 
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