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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well took the paperwork I got off the DNR's web site. I took it to my doctor to get her opinion. After she reviewed it she got all nervous and upset like. She kept telling me how she could loose her license and seem to be real upset withme for asking her. For you guysthat got one do you do much " doctor shopping" ?? She told me unless I was in a wheelchair I have no chance to get one. Wonder why she seem so upset over the paperwork. She told me to just hunt less and : throw" a smaller arrow:yikes:

I guess what I'm asking was it much of an issue to get one??? I have a lot of back pain and don't feel right shooting at a live animal unless I'm sure I can make a killing shot. Anyway I'm going through another doc next week and was wondering if anyone had any input you could give me. Thanks........marty
 

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I have heard similar strories for many, many individuals while trying to obtain a permit to take game with a crossbow. Some physicians are cought by surprise by the form when presented and instinctively say "no" in order to take the easy way out. If you feel that you indeed meet the criteria established by the DNR, then unforutantely (or fortunately, depending how you look at it) you are forced to "doctor shop". What might help is some sort of generic "cover letter" from the DNR explaining to the doctor what these matters are all about, etc. to hopfully lessen their jitters about signing this document.

Another bit of advice, don't pull the form out during a visit to the doctor's office for another ailment unrleated to the crossbow thing. Doctors sometimes resent this approach. Just make an appointment specific for the purpose of being evaluated for a crosbow permit and the physicial will give probabaly be more weight and be more attentitive to your needs, versus "hey doc, as long as I'm here, will ya sign this?"

That said, by last count, there are currently over 35,000 individuals in the state of Michigan who have been issued a permit to take game with a crossbow. That is a huge number! Did some of these individuals have to "doctor shop" in order to obtain a permit. I'd say probably 10-20%. Does the DNR care that you "doctor shopped"? As long as it it is a bonefide signature on that form from a licenced physcian, I'd have to believe that it is kosher with them. Besides, how would they know if you "doctor shopped" and, for that matter, why would they care??

Then again, does every person who obtains a permit to take game with a crossbow meet the criteria set forth on the form? Of course not! It's an "evaluation" of a disability, subject to interpretation. In other words, an "opinion". Some doctors may be very strict, some may simply look at the form for 3 seconds, sign, and say "next item". Some may be "anti-hunting" and have their own agenda (ever think of that?).

Has there ever been instances where individuals have obtained a permit who have nothing more than a 6 handicap in golf or perhaps a speech stutter? I'm likewise sure that that has occured, but it is a smaller number. Still, I would be willing to bet that this type of "infraction" is hardly on the DNR's radar screen (but I could be wrong).

In discussing this subject with a friend who works within the DNR, I was told most of the issues that come up on crossbows are from neighbors against neighbors, where one person obvserves the other hunter using a crossbow and concludes that the person does not meet the criteria for the licence, and reports him/her to the DNR (there may be more than one motive here--don't you think?). Again, I would think this, like the other, is not high on the DNR radar screen of high crimes and offenses. I'd be curious though, if anyone has ever been ticketed for this? Seems llike it would be a very time-consuming and expensive matter to pursue.
 

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The only experience I've had with a hunter trying to obtain a crossbow permit was in 2004 when I was going thru several weeks of physical therapy for an arm injury. A gentleman also going thru therapy showed up for his session with the paperwork and had the therapist fill out her portion. I don't know if he ever got the permit, but the therapist was firmly convinced that he qualified. Perhaps that sort of professional input is helpful.

"Doctor shopping" seems to me to be a legitimate approach that is more acceptably called "getting a second opinion". Why settle for the opinion of one doctor that tells you that you have to be wheelchair-bound? That's ridiculous, and I wouldn't accept that if I truly had a debilitating condition.
 

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Marty

When I got mine I went to my regular doctor, he looked at the papers and refered me to the Physical therapy dept. They did the testing and filled out the paper work, the doctor had nothing to due with it. I hat to pay 75 bucks out of pocket for the exam but it was worth it.
 

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Unless you are missing a hand, arm, or 4 fingers or are paralyzed the doctor must refer you to a physical therapist for testing. Your doctor is wrong by saying you must be wheelchair bound in order to qualify. PT's have the tools and education so they are qualified to do these tests. A doctor does not have this type of formal training.

Go see a doctor, explain that you think you need to be tested by a PT so they can evaluate and document your condition. The doctor can not be held accountable if he or she refers you to a PT for testing.
 

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well,,, im not sure ow the rules for a c/b permit are written. but its her very livelyhood your talking about. she has every right to be concerned and if she's nervous about it you shouldn't press the issue with her.
 

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I know a lady I used to work with who has a CB permit. I have not read the rules on the application, but she is not disabled. She is very tiny and weighs only about 90 pounds. She told me she got it because she cant pull a bow back far enough, not strong enough. She cant load her own CB, she has to have her dad or husband do it, and she only gets 1 shot because she hunts alone.
 

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I have a CB permit and I'm not in a wheelchair. I broke my neck back in 1980 and had to have a bone fusion in my lower neck/upper back. This injury limits the rotation in my neck. I also have some nerve damage and weakness in my right arm from the accident. These injuries are 100% permanent and will never get better. There is no way I can shoot a regular bow or swing a golf club or baseball bat any more, but to look at me you would never recognize me as dissabled.
I was lucky that my doctor and physical therapist agreed and signed the form.
It's to bad that people who are not physically able to hunt with a regular bow are forced to spend the extra time and money to shop around for a Doctor and PT. It can become extremely expensive.
 

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Here is the link to the DNR website pertainng to a application to take game with a crossbow. Suggest you read it thuroughly if intersted.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/crossbowapplication_41526_7.pdf

The previous poster is correct; it appears that if you meet certain (obvious) diability criteria you do not need to be evaluated by a phyical therapist. In that case, the physician can simply sign the form and you're away! For all others, you must have a PT examination.

Now, here's the part pertenent to "doctor shopping", which is, in fact, a misomer. It is really "physical therapist shopping" and, the DNR has set rules against that too. Case in point: if you fail to meet the criteria during your initial evaluation by a PT, you can have another examination by the same or different PT within 60 days of the initial examination. If you fail to meet the criteria on the subsequent examination, you must wait a minimum of 180 days before you can go through the process again with either the same or different PT.

If I were a PT, I would have a difficult time affixing my name and license number to a form where the applicant did not meet the criteria clearly spelled lout. It's just too little a matter to the PT, with too big of a repercusion if it should somehow come back at them (s*** hitting the fan). Then again, I'm sure there have been instances where applicants "embellish" their disability, at least verbally, just short of begging, in order to get the PT to sign the darn form.

Again, the integrity of the process does not rest with the DNR but rather, further upstream with the PT, who the DNR must rely upon to reject those applicants that fail to meet the criteria. I would imagine, once the form is signed, there really isn't any remedy to reverse it by the DNR later on (ie; my shoulder got better, errr 10 years ago). IMO, they simply have bigger fish to fry. Plus it would involve dragging a PT and perhaps a MD's opinion into scutiny...big $$'s, lots of noise.
 

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I applied for a crossbow permit back in the late 90`s due to an injury sustained to my left shoulder that destroyed the ball and socket, partial upper bone in my arm, and left it 50% un-usable for drawing any bow.
After filing several Dr. reports, I finally had a MDNR officer come to my house and tell me I wasn`t disabled enough. He then showed me various contraptions that hold a bow back past its breaking point. I declined.
About a month or so later I learned how to shoot my bow using my teeth/mouth to pull the bow back. I have shot that way ever since with much success. Just my 02 cents.
Whack
 

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I commend you for being able to find an alternative method to pull your bow and thereby be able to remain in the sport. Some people might not have accepted the DNR person's opinion and sought evaluation elsewhere (PT shopping) for as long as it takes.

What some fail to understand that the mere act of pulling a bow (or crossbow) can make a current physical condition suddenly and/or progressively worse. This is a grey area that needs better definition. Also, some individuals simply lose the body stregnth to pull back even the lowest poundage bow, simply for no otherreason than through advanced age. For these people, there is no alternative other than to drop out of bowhunting. That is a shame in my opinion.

Even though the criteria appears to be cut and dry, and the DNR's response is somwhat arbitrary (in your case), 35,000 individuals have obtained a permit to take game with a crossbow here in Michigan. Certainly each and every one of those was/is a unique case decided on its own merits.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I sat out this year bow season cause I didn't feel right hunting. I have a lot of pain in my back,shoulder and neck. All of which I use to pull my bow back. I tried turning down the pounds as far as it would go (52). In a nice warm area I could pull it back three times. If I was to stay motionless for a couple hours I'd never be able to draw that back. I even take a draw-lock if they would go that way.

I guess I didn't feel 100% to take a shot on a deer and making a bad hit and not recovering the animal. I hope they get this done ASAP cause I'd like to bow hunt turkeys this spring. I'm not trying to circumvent the system but I feel I'd be a better shot with a crossbow than using a bow in my condition. Hopefully the doc will get me going on this......m
 

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I have just recieved my Crossbow Permit the other day. The approch i had taken was first I called around to find a Physical Therapist that new what a evalution was for a crossbow....After several calls I found one that knew what I was talking about so I set up the appointment. When I arrived there they gave me this 5 page form to fill out..Basic health history and what I was actually capable of doing during a normal day........When they called me in for the exam we went over the info I provided for them..Then it began they check my head movement ( doesn't move sideways or up or down ) check out my arms how fexible you are ( can't raise them higher than my shoulders or even comb my hair : can't touch my hands behind my back ) then was the torso test they bend and twist you to see how much movement you actually have. Needles to say they do a complete exam of you and who can blame them there license is on the line........After the exam was over they evaluated there findings and a half hour later said I qualified for a License.....They signed their part of the form thenit was off to the Doctors office because they were sending the results to my doctors.. Went to my Doctor and his statement was why didnt I just come to him first, he knew there was no way i could shoot a regular bow or a gun. So he read over the evalution and laughed then signed my form he couldnt belive I needed to see a PT at all........

Im guessing that the PT is to try and make sure the best they can that a person actually qualifies for the license.

:evilsmile
Terry M Bradley
 

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I went through the process this past fall and was denied and sat out archery season in MI. I posted my story a while back so I won't go into it again. The application for the permit requires an 80% permanent disability. So if your doctor is uncertain of your future he would be putting himself on the line to sign it. Same goes for the therapist. They do the evaluation and the doctor signs stating he agrees or disagrees w/ their findings. I spoke w/ the lady who works at the DEQ in this department and she agreed 100% with me when I voiced my displeasure regarding the process. The only way the permit system will change is by letting them know how you feel. I have sent emails and letters to a few magazines as well as the DEQ. I still have some serious problems with my arm and will be having surgery again in the future. I am hopeful for this years archery season but if my problems still exist I will have to sit out another archery season since my injury is not considered an 80% permanent disabilty. I have about 50% use of my arm at best currently and some serious pain a lot of the time but that won't get you a permit unless you do some doctor/therapist shopping. The process needs to change!!!

I knew I should not have looked at this thread:bash: . :rant: :rant: :rant:
 

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First, let me say that I find your screen name to be outstanding!
Better than many I have seen around. A doctor or pysical therapist is
not likely to sign the form because, as we said, there don't want to be
held accountable for something that they percieve, real or imaginary,
could come back and bight them in the butt. That said, I agree, there
needs to be a change. The criteria set forth on the application is now
over 10 years old and has not changed. Perhaps it is to stringent and
was originally drawn up to make it EXTREMELY hard to obtain a permit
simply by copying the language from another state's form (Michigan was
NOT the first to institute this type of permit and believe me, they all
copy each other's forms).
Probably a smart thing to do is a little homework in order to compare
the criteria from each state to see if Michigan's is too strict, too
archaic or just a cut and paste from the other states. They are all on
the Internet. Then, if you discover something of merit, you can go
through the due process of trying to have it changed--that is, if you
feel strongly enough. My fear is, that in doing so, you will also raise
the ire or certain people who desire no lessening of the criteria for
the crossbow application, because they do not like the weapon
whatsoever, physical limitations or otherwise.
 

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First, let me say that I find your screen name to be outstanding! Better than many I have seen around. <br>
<br>
A doctor or pysical therapist is not likely to sign the form because,
as we said, there don't want to be held accountable for something that
they percieve, real or imaginary, could come back and bight them in the
butt. That said, I agree, there needs to be a change. The criteria set
forth on the application is now over 10 years old and has not changed.
Perhaps it is to stringent and was originally drawn up to make it
EXTREMELY hard to obtain a permit simply by copying the language from
another state's form (Michigan was NOT the first to institute this type
of permit and believe me, they all copy each other's forms). Probably a
smart thing to do is a little homework in order to compare the criteria
from each state to see if Michigan's is too strict, too archaic or just
a cut and paste from the other states. They are all on the Internet.
Then, if you discover something of merit, you can go through the due
process of trying to have it changed--that is, if you feel strongly
enough. My fear is, that in doing so, you will also raise the ire or
certain people who desire no lessening of the criteria for the crossbow
application, because they do not like the weapon whatsoever, physical
limitations or otherwise.
 

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I agree that most doctors/therapist would not want to have their name on something that could come back to haunt them down the road. I started a thread called "What a crock" a while back that had a lot of different opinions on this issue. Do a search and check it out. Thanks for the name remarks. I find myself saying I'll be outside to my wife a lot so.....:lol: .
 

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Maybe I just live right, whole process went very smooth. And I'm no where near being confined to a wheel chair state, as a matter of fact at times still use conventional bow
 

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The application has changed in the last few years. The way it reads now is more restrictive than before. By current standards, if you can draw a traditional bow you would most likely not qualify. How many people can draw a bow and shoot effectively with an 80% permanent disabilty?? I probably could draw my bow now but have a 5lb max limit on my left arm (draw w/ right) until the bone is healed. I would also have some serious pain if I did so. Could I practice or shoot effectively is this was Sept. or Oct?? No. Glad you got your permit Dodge but I am curios as to when and how. I know some people who recieved them and their condition has improved enough to shoot a conventional bow but still use the x-bow. This is why Michigan needs to look into temporary permits. These permits should be for one or two years and need to be reviewed to be reissued. I had a permit to use one in Kentucky and it expired at the end of the season. That meant I gave Ky a lot of money to hunt their state because mine would not allow me to hunt. Maybe Michigan is better off than I thought and can afford to lose hunters and the dollars they generate.
 
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