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Discussion Starter #1
http://freep.com/article/20081113/BUSINESS01/311130002

Sorry, but ya lost me at "we need a bailout to pay our execs $30 million in bonuses as we lay of thousands":rolleyes:

Ya can only bailout a sinking ship so many times before you realize that there is an irreparable leak due to the hull being rotten which is causing the ship to repeatedly be swamped.

I think the same thing applied to Wall Street. I don't like the rationale that "they got theirs, we (the Detroit 3) should get ours."

So many on this board think "welfare" is immoral, especially if the "welfare" is being used to buy luxury items like Coach purses. Why aren't these bailouts any different if the bailout $ is being used in part to fund bonuses for the execs who coudn't manage the companies to be profitable.:dizzy:
 

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I thought the Democratic party was for the "working man"?

How can Pelosi and gang justify taking our tax dollars to put directly into the fat cats bank accounts?

Sounds almost Republican to me?

Or did W just tell them to pack sand?

But he is a Republican?????

*** is going on around here????:dizzy:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I thought the Democratic party was for the "working man"?

How can Pelosi and gang justify taking our tax dollars to put directly into the fat cats bank accounts?

Sounds almost Republican to me?

Or did W just tell them to pack sand?

But he is a Republican?????

*** is going on around here????:dizzy:
Steelsetter,

The Dems are for the working man and so am I. However, I am angered by bailing out a ship that is ineffectively being steered from the top by execs who get lavish bonuses to reward their ineptitude.

What was Chrysler's big 2008 product? The Challenger that gets like 16 MPG.:dizzy: Give the guys something to build that will actually sell, maybe???
 

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Steelsetter,

The Dems are for the working man and so am I. However, I am angered by bailing out a ship that is ineffectively being steered from the top by execs who get lavish bonuses to reward their ineptitude.

What was Chrysler's big 2008 product? The Challenger that gets like 16 MPG.:dizzy: Give the guys something to build that will actually sell, maybe???

Chryslers problem is the 500,000 vehicles that came back in off lease at an average loss of over $5000. And they still didn't learn their lesson as they were giving away Dakotas for 2 yrs for next to nothing on prepay leases on the last day Chrysler Financial was doing them.
New products don't just pop up, the Challenger's been on the schedule for over 2 years prior to release. All the dealers that I visit sold all o f the big Hemi SRT versions as soon as they hit the floor for thousands over sticker! Once again, HP beats out MPG!
 

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Steelsetter,

The Dems are for the working man and so am I. However, I am angered by bailing out a ship that is ineffectively being steered from the top by execs who get lavish bonuses to reward their ineptitude.

What was Chrysler's big 2008 product? The Challenger that gets like 16 MPG.:dizzy: Give the guys something to build that will actually sell, maybe???
REALLY AGREE on why we are bailing out ships that may never float again!

Hell lay down some good game rules and I am all for it.

Just blindly handing money to these folks, from the broom boy up to the CEO makes no sense to me at all:confused:

Pelosi's pic with her bailout bill in hand makes me want to wretch.....
 

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What was Chrysler's big 2008 product? The Challenger that gets like 16 MPG.:dizzy: Give the guys something to build that will actually sell, maybe???
Actually, our local dealer is selling Challengers as fast as they can get them...the regular Hemi's and even the high dollar SRT's. The folks that want them, for the most part, can afford them. I want a regular Hemi Charger R/T and at about $35k for the options I want, it's a lot of car for the money really. It certainly won't be my daily driver though. Too hard for me to justify for what in my case would be a toy, but maybe in a year or two I can find a deal on a used one.

But, I agree...no bailout unless they agree to wholesale changes on how they do business, from top to bottom...and that includes pay scales top to bottom.
 

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Steelsetter,

The Dems are for the working man and so am I. However, I am angered by bailing out a ship that is ineffectively being steered from the top by execs who get lavish bonuses to reward their ineptitude.

What was Chrysler's big 2008 product? The Challenger that gets like 16 MPG.:dizzy: Give the guys something to build that will actually sell, maybe???
Well the democrats are hipocrits because they truly will take the bonuses and perks that come with their political jobs Republicans too.

Find a polatcian that wont take the perks Republican or Democrat and theres your leader. The rest are theives looking for free whatever. And that is sad because some of us are affiated with Demorcrats as you just stated, so would that make you guilty too? If not please explain how
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Well the democrats are hipocrits because they truly will take the bonuses and perks that come with their political jobs Republicans too.

Find a polatcian that wont take the perks Republican or Democrat and theres your leader. The rest are theives looking for free whatever. And that is sad because some of us are affiated with Demorcrats as you just stated, so would that make you guilty too? If not please explain how
That's not the issue. The issue is why would Congress give Chrysler or Ford or GM bailout money if tens of millions of that money is going to be used to pay a few dozen seven figure bonuses?

All politicians in Michigan are going to pull hard to get the bailout money. But what's it going to do other than be at best a 2 or 3 month reprieve?

Why don't the execs who are "owed" bonuses agree to take the equivalent in stock at its current value? If they believe so strongly that the bailout will save the company, then forego the bonus and earn their keep by making that stock valuable.

Why wont they do that like Iacocca did 25 years ago? Because they want theirs NOW, despite NOT having earned it and despite wanting taxpayers to bear the risk of pouring $10 billion down the drain bailing out 3 ships that have been living on the borrowed time which was afforded by minimum profit leases and zero down/zero percent financing that they floated by on for a few years.

It is a joke.
 

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It is more than just exec pay, I was watching The Big Idea on CNBC last night and they were discussing how some of the union contracts allowed some shop floor labor to be paid more than $75 an hour... how does that work?
 

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That's not the issue. The issue is why would Congress give Chrysler or Ford or GM bailout money if tens of millions of that money is going to be used to pay a few dozen seven figure bonuses?

All politicians in Michigan are going to pull hard to get the bailout money. But what's it going to do other than be at best a 2 or 3 month reprieve?

Why don't the execs who are "owed" bonuses agree to take the equivalent in stock at its current value? If they believe so strongly that the bailout will save the company, then forego the bonus and earn their keep by making that stock valuable.

Why wont they do that like Iacocca did 25 yeard ago? Because they want theirs NOW, despite NOT having earned it and despite wanting taxpayers to bear the risk of pouring $10 billion down the drain bailing out 3 ships that have been living on the borrowed time which was afforded by minimum profit leases and zero down/zero percent financing that they floated by on for a few years.

It is a joke.
Agreed

For all of those people that feel that the jobs lost would be too hard to take... I wonder what the people that are in danger of losing their job would be doing if the Govt had not bailed out these companies twenty years ago. The big three have had reprieves time and time again and they either don't care to get it right, or can't get it right.

Here is the bail out they should get.

http://blog.tomevslin.com/2008/11/saving-us-auto.html
 

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I am glad to see there are some who agree with me. If they want the money sure, but top exects get 100,000ur engeniers 60,000yr and hourly get up to 16 bucks an hour. No bonuses untill all debt is paid off. Hard to earn money when your bleeding it uncontrolably.
 

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Its not just Chrysler. Rick Wagoner has been in executive management for over 15 years at GM. If he hasn't figured out by now how to run an auto manufacturer with sustainable profitability then how is $25 billion of taxpayer money going to help? It won't. They'll burn through the cash to stay afloat in the short-term. It will runout. And they'll need more because they will not have fundamentally changed the way they do business.
If I were the Treasury Secretary and GM game to the federal government for "bailout money" I would tell GM that the conversation begins when Rick Wagoner's employment with GM is terminated.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Its not just Chrysler. Rick Wagoner has been in executive management for over 15 years at GM. If he hasn't figured out by now how to run an auto manufacturer with sustainable profitability then how is $25 billion of taxpayer money going to help? It won't. They'll burn through the cash to stay afloat in the short-term. It will runout. And they'll need more because they will not have fundamentally changed the way they do business.
If I were the Treasury Secretary and GM game to the federal government for "bailout money" I would tell GM that the conversation begins when Rick Wagoner's employment with GM is terminated.
That is a really good point.
 

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Here's the other problem, this is not just GM or auto industry-specific, this is all over corporate America. Look at GM's Board of Directors. The CEO of Coca Cola...the CEO of Sara Lee...the CEO of Kodak.
Are these directors auto manufacturing experts? Do they have a fundamental understanding of the US and Global automotive industry? Boards of Directors are nothing more than a tool for CEO's to reciprocally pad each others wallets, instead of holding Senior Management at the company responsible for doing there job.



Percy N. Barnevik
Retired Chairman,
AstraZeneca PLC
Director since 1996
Erskine B. Bowles
President,
The University of North Carolina
Director since 2005
John H. Bryan
Retired Chairman
and Chief Executive Officer,
Sara Lee Corporation
Director since 1993
Armando M. Codina
President
and Chief Executive Officer,
Flagler Development Group
Director since 2002
Erroll B. Davis, Jr.
Chancellor,
University System of Georgia
Director since 2007
George M.C. Fisher
Retired Chairman
and Chief Executive Officer,
Eastman Kodak Company
Director since 1996
E. Neville Isdell
Chairman
and Chief Executive Officer,
The Coca-Cola Company
Director since 2008
Karen Katen
Chairman,
Pfizer Foundation,
Retired Vice Chairman,
Pfizer Inc and Retired President,
Pfizer Human Health,
Director since 1997
Kent Kresa
Chairman Emeritus,
Northrop Grumman Corporation
Director since 2003
Ellen J. Kullman
Executive Vice President,
DuPont,
E.I. du Pont de Nemours and Company
Director since 2004
Philip A. Laskawy
Retired Chairman
and Chief Executive Officer,
Ernst & Young
Director since 2003
Kathryn V. Marinello
Chairman
and Chief Executive Officer,
Ceridian Corporation
Director since 2007
Eckhard Pfeiffer
Retired President
and Chief Executive Officer,
Compaq Computer Corporation
Director since 1996
G. Richard Wagoner, Jr.
Chairman
& Chief Executive Officer,
General Motors Corporation
Director since 1998
 

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Seriously, for any of the companies to be eligble, they need to get rid of deadweight, Ford at the top of the list should have to sell the Lions, they are supposedly worth 700 Million. Les
 
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