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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Didn't the crossbow vote come up today?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ah. I thought they were always the 1st Thursday of the month. My bad. :eek: ;)
 

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This will be a true test for the "new" NRC. In an effort to come up with additional funding (grasping at straws?) will they throw the baby out with the bathwater and cave in on this issue?

My guess is they will once again liberalize deer season...just my opinion
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The NRC is not caving. The only thing that has caved is public opposition to crossbows for seniors and 60% disabled. The NRC has been gladly looking for a good opportunity to change the crossbow rules for several years and only vocal minority opinion has stopped them. But now, minority opposition is small enough not to matter enough to stop needed changes. IMHO
I'm sure they'll bump up antlerless quota's in many DMU's in the NLP.
 

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Pinefarm said:
The NRC is not caving. The only thing that has caved is public opposition to crossbows for seniors and 60% disabled. The NRC has been gladly looking for a good opportunity to change the crossbow rules for several years and only vocal minority opinion has stopped them. But now, minority opposition is small enough not to matter enough to stop needed changes. IMHO
I'm sure they'll bump up antlerless quota's in many DMU's in the NLP.
PLEASE!!! bentduck is absolutely right. This is all about MONEY! At least be honest about it. Why else would the crossbow lobby be pressing the flesh with the DNR bigwigs the last 2 months and "giving" money to the DNR right before the vote for Archery in the Schools. The DNR has been opposed to the liberalization of crossbows in the early season for many years. Now all of a sudden, in a budget crisis, they have done a 180 and support it because of a false dream that they will sell more licenses. I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night!

The NRC has more non-hunters on it now than every before and this group simply panders to every vocal minority that comes in whining. When you have people at open Commission meetings complaining about wanting a crossbow permit simply because they do not want to buy a new bow and they should be able to have one "just because", explain to me how that has anything to do with disability?

BTW, what does age or being a so-called "senior" have to do with being disabled?

The number of NLP doe permits have been falling steadily and will continue to do so. If you add a more efficient weapon into the early season, they will continue to cut them.

I have a real novel idea. Buy a BOW, learn how to shoot it, and then come on out and enjoy the ARCHERY season with archery hunters.

Dan
 

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One Eye said:
This is all about MONEY! At least be honest about it. Why else would the crossbow lobby be pressing the flesh with the DNR bigwigs the last 2 months and "giving" money to the DNR right before the vote for Archery in the Schools. The DNR has been opposed to the liberalization of crossbows in the early season for many years. Now all of a sudden, in a budget crisis, they have done a 180 and support it because of a false dream that they will sell more licenses.
Sorry Dan, you are incorrect about that. If you did even a search on this site you would find discussions about allowing crossbows a number of years ago so it isn't all about money.

Although I have no problem with crossbows, I do agree with many that allowing crossbows will not be any money making advantage to the DNR of any significance. If you believe there would be a signicant amount of financal gain to the DNR by allowing the use of crossbows, please explain.

Here is one post for you, back in Sept 2000;
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4142&highlight=crossbow

Here is a list of posts for you, there could be even more;
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1804435

:):)
 

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The number of NLP doe permits have been falling steadily and will continue to do so. If you add a more efficient weapon into the early season, they will continue to cut them.

your living in a dream world if you think a cross bow is more efficient than todays mordern bow. first they are less forgiving, and they do not have the range that many of you think. lets go to a 3d range with varying ranges un mark and i will out shoot the crossbow user 9 out of ten times. your so worryied about the deer heard come on back when we had are largest heard we could take 5 deer a year and 4 of them being bucks and back than we had over1 million hunters. so from what i read i can not see any reason not to let the crossbow issue pass and maybe get a few more hunters, and i say it will be only a few.
:D :D :D :D LET THEM HUNT:D :D :D :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ray, didn't you know that the huge crossbow monopolies and insurance companies run MDNR from the controls of their black helicopters. :)
 

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I would use the oportunity to hunt another year with my father. He will be 76 years old this month and hasn't been up north bow hunting with me since his 60's.
<----<<<
 

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Pinefarm said:
Ray, didn't you know that the huge crossbow monopolies and insurance companies run MDNR from the controls of their black helicopters. :)
I knew that Bob but IT'S SUPPOSE TO BE A SECRET! Shssssssssss.:)
 

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Joe Archer said:
I would use the oportunity to hunt another year with my father. He will be 76 years old this month and hasn't been up north bow hunting with me since his 60's.
<----<<<
Joe I bought my Gramps one and it is great. He is 77 and still hunting with us. I bought the one with Accu Draw; he uses an eletric drill to get the string back. With Accu Draw you can let the bow down.
 

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swoosh said:
Joe I bought my Gramps one and it is great. He is 77 and still hunting with us. I bought the one with Accu Draw; he uses an eletric drill to get the string back. With Accu Draw you can let the bow down.
Thanks for the tip! My fingers are crossed.....
<----<<<
 

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The crossbow proposal was voted on today and the NRC voted unanimously against the proposed changes. It's still the same but a committee is being formed from those that were in attendance and the process is supposed to be researched and made more user friendly.:)
Also, a crossbow manufacturer spoke for the proposed changes and when he was asked what he would he propose as a remedy he replied," I would allow crossbows for everyone in archery season but getting them for the seniors is a start.":rolleyes:
 

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One Eye said:
The NRC has more non-hunters on it now than every before and this group simply panders to every vocal minority that comes in whining. When you have people at open Commission meetings complaining about wanting a crossbow permit simply because they do not want to buy a new bow and they should be able to have one "just because", explain to me how that has anything to do with disability?

BTW, what does age or being a so-called "senior" have to do with being disabled?

I have a real novel idea. Buy a BOW, learn how to shoot it, and then come on out and enjoy the ARCHERY season with archery hunters.Dan
Dan, not knowing your age I'm not totally sure of how to respond to your statement other than...perhaps wait until you are at an advanced age before you put all the seniors down.

It is a well-known fact that as people age their mental and physical abilities decline. While it is true one can always find an exception such as some 75 year old man or woman who runs marathons or lifts weights, these are indeed the exception to the rule. As for when, or at what age this decline begins, that also can vary but generally it is well under way by the time a person hits 50 for sure. Age 60 is usually very noticable and age 65 and over the muscles are very much in decline, and it isn't always pretty. It also is difficult for one to take when the body just doesn't do what you want it to do anymore.

On your point about buying a bow and learning how to shoot it...well, that just looks like you are trying to put people down with that statement and I hope I am dead wrong on that assumption. But as for buying a bow and learning how to shoot it, many have done that many years ago. Yes, we are talking about older people who have been archers in the past. True, we may pick up a few others who are new to archery but how many?

And that last part where you state, "...come on out and enjoy the ARCHERY season with archery hunters." Whoa! Are you saying that anybody who doesn't shoot an arrow the same as you are not archers? Just as there are many different vechiles for driving down the road or many different guns one can take deer hunting etc., there also are many different bows. Along with different manufacturers, we have long bows, recurve bows, compound bows, crossbows, etc., etc.

It's the same now as when compounds came on the market. There were those who hated them and tried to keep them out because, "there were't real bows and that wasn't real archery." We were at a crossroads then and perhaps are there again. Some will accept it, some will fight it. The question always begs to be asked; Is the way you do things the only way things can be done? I think not.

And please, I am not trying to ruffle any feathers or start something here. This is just like Dan's post; an opinion. However, I do attempt to keep emotion out of the equation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The only lobby efforts I've seen came from below. And one crossbow maker doesn't not a powerful lobby make. ;)

http://www.michiganbowhunters.com/

URGENT! YOUR ASSISTANCE IS NEEDED!

The Natural Resources Commission (NRC) will be voting on proposals at the May 10th meeting that would expand the use of crossbows in the archery season, most notably allowing able bodied hunters over the age of 65 to hunt with a crossbow during the archery season. Please join us by attending the meeting and expressing your opposition to these proposals. If you cannot attend, please take the time to call or write the NRC and express your concern and opposition. Below are some bullet points that you can use in your communication to the NRC:

Age should not be a factor in determining eligibility to use a crossbow or to determine whether a person is handicapped.

The current permit system is broken and it is unfair to make the disabled buy a crossbow.

Expanding the use of the crossbow into the archery season will result in more conflict between user groups.

A crossbow is more effective than a hand-held bow because it can be shot from a rest. The inclusion of such a hunting tool in the bow season will jeopardize the length of the season because of the significant increase in the number of bucks taken before November 15th. Firearm hunters are already concerned with the number of deer killed before the November 15th firearm opener and the simplest way to restore equality would be to shorten the bow season.

The NRC meeting will be held May 10th at 4:15 p.m. at the new MSU Animal Health Diagnostic Center, located just south of the MSU campus at 4125 Beaumont Rd., Lansing. Click here to view a map.

If you cannot attend the meeting in person, contact information for the Natural Resources Commission is available by visiting the Michigan NRC website.

Click here for tips on How to Write Government Officials.

Check out the North American Bowhunting Coalition website for more information on adaptive equipment for physically challenged bowhunters.


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The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation changes and laser sight usage

The Michigan Bow Hunters Association does not support using age as a condition for determining crossbow eligibility. Eligibility should be determined by need on a case by case basis.

MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused.

We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue. In addition, there are other issues with the crossbow permit system not mentioned in the proposal. We look forward to working with the NRC to resolve these concerns.

Michigan Bow Hunters does not oppose establishing a permit for legally blind hunters using laser sighting devices on a bow, crossbow or firearm, when the hunter is accompanied and assisted by an adult, licensed hunter.
 

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One Eye said:
I have a real novel idea. Buy a BOW, learn how to shoot it, and then come on out and enjoy the ARCHERY season with archery hunters.

Dan
I have a neighbor who has been an avid bow hunter and has shot professionally with both compound and recurve bows in Michigan and Texas. Back in 2005 he had a pacemaker put in. Then, a couple of months later, had a slip and fall causing fractures to two vertabra in his back. His doctor agreed to sign the permit to allow him to use a crossbow but his therapist refused. This is a man in his early 70s living on a fixed income. Should he be forced to spend his money to "shop around" for a therapist who will agree with his doctor? Or, should he just sit out a few years and rejoin the ranks of bowhunters if and when his condition improves? I find that totally absurd.

This man should be allowed to hunt with a crossbow as he should have been for the last two seasons!!!

But, at least you saved the archery season for "archery hunters."
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
My opinions are in no way meant to flame or insult anyone or any group. This is just merely my thinking on the matter and is only meant to be taken in an adult, constructive way.

As always in this debate, the main, big point is missed. And that point is DEER MANAGEMENT. Hunters are MDNR's only deer management tools. That's the whole reason for any deer seasons. Managing deer is why we have rules and seasons. Deer seasons are not mainly for hunters to have fun afield with their weapon of choice.
That's why MDNR was for these changes, from my understanding. It appears that the NRC blocked MDNR's management wishes due to lobby efforts. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't see MBH's mention anything about ways to improve the deer herd populations in their call to action. They're still stuck in the mindset of killing bucks. IMHO.
The simplest way to restore equality between archers and firearms hunters isn't to shorten the bow season, it's to restict buck tag options. Tags limit harvest more than season length. In the box thinking. Making crossbow use for antlerless only would have been out of the box thinking.


In my opinion, be it MBH, MTB or anti-QDM folks, many people still miss the point because they think the point is about THEM. I respect the rights of the people speaking for these groups and I do believe they think they are well intentioned. But it isn't about them. All rule changes should have the overall deer herd in mind first, then whatever individual choices a hunters chooses to make for himself, second.
Like the typical Michigan political mindset, we just witnessed a classic "if we pretend changes aren't needed, they'll go away" Michigan phenom.
Basically, we still have status quo everything.

Ironically, all MBH may have done is possibly assured an early firearms antlerless season for future October's or at least brought about further increases in northern antlerless quota's that will be mostly filled by firearms hunters.

I wish there was some differeing voices in these groups to give a different, wider angle of these issue's, instead of groupthink.

And few questions. Can someone explain this one to me?

"The current permit system is broken and it is unfair to make the disabled buy a crossbow."

Make disabled buy?

Or...

"Expanding the use of the crossbow into the archery season will result in more conflict between user groups."

It's fighting this issue that has caused the deep wounds that will last a lifetime for many who ever considered joining particular groups. IMHO


Or...

"A crossbow is more effective than a hand-held bow because it can be shot from a rest. The inclusion of such a hunting tool in the bow season will jeopardize the length of the season because of the significant increase in the number of bucks taken before November 15th. Firearm hunters are already concerned with the number of deer killed before the November 15th firearm opener and the simplest way to restore equality would be to shorten the bow season."

Two things, did MBH ever consider calling for crossbows to be good for antlerless only? And given the wounding rates I've witnessed from seniors at the store when they attempt to use compounds, I'd MAKE them use a crossbow so they only arrowed 1 deer to fill 1 tag, not 2 or 3 deer to fill 1 tag.

Some boxes are airtight concrete and people can't think out of them. IMHO
I think strong lobbiest groups of MBH and MTB have hurt themselves in the long run by taking these stances on this lone issue that are easily argued as non-inclusive/anti-hunter/anti-deer management. While I understand how these groups have to think and who their leadership is made up of, I just wish a group that called itself Michigan Bow Hunters didn't just take the proverbial legs out from under the handicapped and less than abled senior archers. Just my. 02

A battle victory for them, but it leaves a bitter taste in the PR war for hunter inclusion and, our biggest fight, improved DEER MANAGEMENT.

Allowing crossbow use for seniors and 60% handicapped, for antlerless only tags all archery season long, would have been a great tool, if any lobby group would have pushed for it.
 

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I believe that many have lost sight of the fact that archers approached the DNR requesting the chance to have a season that was challenging, a season that was for opportunity to spend more time in the woods. Bowhunting was not even considered a "Management tool" until technology made the impact that resulted in much higher kill and THEN bowhunters were figured into the management equation.
Now many wish to add an even more proficient weapon to the archery season. This would lead to higher kills and the wildlife biologists have already stated that if the buck harvest goes up even a little bit before the rut that it would have a negative impact. We already have firearms hunters claiming that we take too many deer and wish for us to have our season shortened. Do you guys want to add the crossbow and help give credibility to the firearms hunters claim resulting in a shorter season? I don't. I use traditional equipment purposely to add challenge and I need a lengthy season many times just to be successful.
I did not become a bowhunter 28 years ago to become a deer manager and if I wish to become a deer manager then I would wait until firearms season where the management should take place.
If you want to manage the deer herd and kill off more deer in areas where there are high numbers of deer and car deer accidents then come up with a way to access the private land and kill the deer. The ones that hold the key to reducing deer numbers are the private land owners.
 
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