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Allegedly, you are innocent until proven guilty.
Important to remember that.

More like scapegoats
Mr. Massey pled guilty. Governor Snyder's day has been coming for a long time. He's known it and has had time to prepare his defense. So, there is no saying his trial will not be fair.


i would also add AG nessel to that list.
I'm for voting her out when the time comes.

the only reason that wixom lake was filled with water was because the AG mandated that it be filled. with no research and no impact study.
Come on you know this isn't true.
 

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No -

When the state took control of Flint with an EM, they THEN became responsible for management of the city and subject to neglect.

"When any duty is or shall be enjoined by law upon any public officer,"

When EM's took over Flint, a duty was enjoined by law upon Rick Snyder.

The state had no control of the dams in question, and no duty was enjoined by law upon any officer of the state.
Except you're missing one huge point on the dams, the owners wanted to draw them down in the spring so this wouldn't happen, but Nessle stopped them from doing so to protect a fresh water mussel. If that isn't negligence then what is? If you say that Nessel didn't realize the impact of her decision, than it could be said the Snyder didn't either. You stated that Wixom Lake was drawn down to unreasonable levels prior to this last debacle, well they don't have to worry about that for a while now, do they? She could have expedited some sort of allowance for draw down, IF she would have chosen to do any studies. The mere fact the dam was considered a problem should have told her to draw the water down, but NOOOOOOO, she has to protect those there mussels, that no one else seems to give a crap about. I'm not saying we shouldn't protect them, but at what cost? Would they even be there if it weren't for the lake? What use do they have, are they used for something I"m not aware of? Look, I'm not an advocate for killing everything in site, but there comes a point where you have to decide what is reality.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/05/22/sanford-dam-michigan-flooding/5245255002/
 

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Except you're missing one huge point on the dams, the owners wanted to draw them down in the spring so this wouldn't happen, but Nessle stopped them from doing so to protect a fresh water mussel.
No, she didn't.

She sued them for doing it WITHOUT PERMITS in 2018 and 2019.

They had the option to fix the dams and keep water levels high.
They had the option to get permits to lower the water level, and lower the water level.
They had the option to lower the water level without permits, and face another lawsuit.

...but they were NOT stopped from drawing down the lake.



She could have expedited some sort of allowance for draw down, IF she would have chosen to do any studies.
It is not her responsibility to request permits for draw down. It is not her responsibility to repair the dams.

Her responsibility is to enforce state law.
 

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The city of Flint should be on trial. Not the prior governor. Unless he has a degree in chemistry and was assigned charge of Flints water treatment .
The Science Behind The Flint Water Crisis: Corrosion Of Pipes, Erosion Of Trust | IFLScience
That's an interesting article. It has a lot to say about water quality. But it doesn't seem to support your charge against the City of Flint. There are city officials facing prosecution along with the Governor. But it's his neck we want to see in the noose.
 

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No, she didn't.

The AG sued them to punish them for lowering the lake level IN PREVIOUS YEARS, WITHOUT GETTING NECESSARY PERMITS.

"This lawsuit seeks to vindicate the rights o fthe public to enjoy and benefit from Michigan's natural resources, including the freshwater mussels that live in the Wixom Lake ecosystem in Gladwin and Midland Counties. Without authorization, Defendants dramatically lowered the level of Wixom Lake for an extended period in both 2018 and 2019 (Drawdowns), causing the death of thousands if not millions of freshwater mussels-many of which are federally endangered. The Drawdowns also unreasonably dewatered wetlands that depend on Wixom Lake and otherwise damaged Michigan's natural resources. This suit seeks monetary relief and civil fines to compensate the public for the damage caused to the public's natural resources, and equitable and prospective relief to restore the natural resource damage and to ensure that it does not happen again."

It did not force them to do anything in 2020.

They could have gotten appropriate permits and lowered lake levels. They could have lowered lake levels, and potentially gotten fined again. They could have fixed their dams and not worried about lake levels.

... but they were absolutely NOT forced to fill Wixom lake by the state.
yeah they did. they used the endangered species act to set a minumim lake level that had to be maintained between x dates. there was never an mandate of lake level before that.
 

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The city of Flint should be on trial. Not the prior governor. Unless he has a degree in chemistry and was assigned charge of Flints water treatment .
The Science Behind The Flint Water Crisis: Corrosion Of Pipes, Erosion Of Trust | IFLScience
I have a degree in chemistry. I understand quite well how the lack of corrosion inhibitors lead to lead leaching into household drinking water.

The Flint Water debacle is an excellent example of the misguided philosophy that the common good should always be provided by the lowest bidder.

It just so happens that those that understood the chemistry were ignored by those at higher pay grades, with the purpose of saving about $140/day.

Those misguided decisions resulted in death and injury and ultimately cost many more dollars than they saved.

Those misguided decisions were made by someone above the pay grade of the water treatment plant operators with the knowledge of the chemistry involved.
 

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That's an interesting article. It has a lot to say about water quality. But it doesn't seem to support your charge against the City of Flint. There are city officials facing prosecution along with the Governor. But it's his neck we want to see in the noose.
It was Flint officials wanting thier own water treatment facility. Correct?
With running a facility comes the monitoring quality. Making corrections to water treatment , who is tasked with such/
Specifically , adding chlorine to reduce coliform bacteria, and creating another chemical , and the chain reaction of reaction of pipes....Was who's task?
IF that person or persons was coerced , (and as noted chlorine is the accepted answer to reduce said bacteria in amounts enough to counter) by someone upline , then yes those upline need investigated as well.

Only my opinion. It was a water treatment plant that chemistry upset multiple factors from pipes to scale build up in pipes.
Flint is not unique in that regard. Multiple other communal systems are also vulnerable.
I've hefted lead pipe with valve from a city that was removed for service.
It's scale was as subject to disruption , and it's potential lead leaching was as real as anywhere else.

IF the governor was responsible for the water treatment and chemistry , there's a better case against him.
I'm no Snyder fan. But it seems like barking up the wrong tree to me.
Community water treatment facility has a problem , it's the governors fault?
There were a lot of more qualified people involved.
And who was making the decisions from the very start of Flint going on it's own for a water supply and going forward? Snyder?
I foe one see no qualification on his part to be involved in any water treatment.
Nor did I expect he'd be personally monitoring it. White hardhat , clipboard , chemical biology and science background....Thorough understanding of all E.P.A. regulations and procedures.Ect.
 

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I agree, my likeness to the dam failure was only pointing out the differences in accountability. i dont think Snyder should be charged for the flint thing any more that gretch should be for the dam thing.
 

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I have a degree in chemistry. I understand quite well how the lack of corrosion inhibitors lead to lead leaching into household drinking water.

The Flint Water debacle is an excellent example of the misguided philosophy that the common good should always be provided by the lowest bidder.

It just so happens that those that understood the chemistry were ignored by those at higher pay grades, with the purpose of saving about $140/day.

Those misguided decisions resulted in death and injury and ultimately cost many more dollars than they saved.

Those misguided decisions were made by someone above the pay grade of the water treatment plant operators with the knowledge of the chemistry involved.
Good. You are applying logic and seeking facts.
As I stated prior , if it was upline coercing the treatment worker(s) , then investigate them.

It is a delicate system, keeping scale intact and not leaching due to chemical reaction. And the system was not treated accordingly.

For those treatment workers , there's an old saying , you can fire me when I don't let you kill me.
But were those workers residents on that water supply , it could have backfired.
I don't recall if the whistleblower act was employed to start the alarm.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
For those that appear to have not read the article, it clearly states that the discharge was down river from where they took in their drinking water in 14 and 15......

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk
 

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'Us' will pay for Snyders lawyers, We will pay for Nessels snail screw up, and things juts got better as Whitless is named VP of Dem party...she to will screw this up!
 

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I agree, my likeness to the dam failure was only pointing out the differences in accountability. i dont think Snyder should be charged for the flint thing any more that gretch should be for the dam thing.
You can rest assured that if Snyder's situation goes to trial, "what aboutism" such as your argument will not be part of the court proceedings.

If "what aboutism" ever becomes admissible in court, you may wish to become an expert witness.
 

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Good. You are applying logic and seeking facts.
As I stated prior , if it was upline coercing the treatment worker(s) , then investigate them.

It is a delicate system, keeping scale intact and not leaching due to chemical reaction. And the system was not treated accordingly.

For those treatment workers , there's an old saying , you can fire me when I don't let you kill me.
But were those workers residents on that water supply , it could have backfired.
I don't recall if the whistleblower act was employed to start the alarm.
The issues with Flint water are not just about the chemistry. It is much more nuanced.

If Snyder is tried, the questions before the court will involve what he knew, when he knew and what he did when he became aware that the Flint drinking water was a public health crisis.

Watch what happens. It will be very interesting.
 

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It was Flint officials wanting their own water treatment facility. Correct?
It was a decision made by the EM appointed by the Governor.
The rest of your argument falls apart after this.

With running a facility comes the monitoring quality. Making corrections to water treatment , who is tasked with such/
Specifically , adding chlorine to reduce coliform bacteria, and creating another chemical , and the chain reaction of reaction of pipes....Was who's task?
IF that person or persons was coerced , (and as noted chlorine is the accepted answer to reduce said bacteria in amounts enough to counter) by someone upline , then yes those upline need investigated as well.

IF the governor was responsible for the water treatment and chemistry , there's a better case against him.
I'm no Snyder fan. But it seems like barking up the wrong tree to me.
It's the right tree alright.

Community water treatment facility has a problem , it's the governors fault?
There were a lot of more qualified people involved.
And who was making the decisions from the very start of Flint going on it's own for a water supply and going forward? Snyder?
I foe one see no qualification on his part to be involved in any water treatment.
Nor did I expect he'd be personally monitoring it. White hardhat , clipboard , chemical biology and science background....Thorough understanding of all E.P.A. regulations and procedures.Ect.
I think we can agree that The City of Flints financial and infrastructural problems were staggering. They needed help but what they received did harm. Sue McCormick had her own challenges and could not (or chose not) to help Flint. The EM made his decision and that as they say was that. The Governor acted against the will of the voters. He placed EM's who were not qualified to handle the complicated issues they were tasked with.

The leader gets either the accolades or the noose.
 
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