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Tornado Jim
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Can you tell us who the experts are from Michigan that believe this ? Why would you think that any pig is being released when they can be sold ? That makes no sense to me.
Last fall I talked with a Mi. Wildlife Biologists and she felt that most pigs being reported and killed were domestics and were escaping from people with the worst fences.....hobby farmers, 4H kids and Amish farmers.
She also stated that more pigs are being reported in the last 5 years or so since the DNR has greatly increased their efforts to collect this information from DNR employees, hunters, general public and farmers.
Do you know if the DNR tries to get pictures and/or DNA from all kills reported.

L & O
Let me give you a riddle L&O. If the expert biologists from Michigan did not think that most of the problem was coming from the enclosures why do you think they are singling them out with their new rules?

Yeah, yeah, I know, conspiracy to wreck an industry and "political reasons." And somehow, making money will come into it:lol:.

Some biologists are more educated on the subject than others. What's the name of the biologist you talked with?

I got some of my information from my pig eradication course, some from Kristie, some from other sources. Tim Wilson from USDA was one of the faculty at the pig course. You can call him at 517-336-1928 ex 26. Another was Brent Rudolph. I bet he knows more than whoever you talked to. Just guessing.
 

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Your smarter than this bio. Which group is easier to fight? MI Pork Producers and all their money and clout or a couple of dozen ranches? Which side will have public support? Which one would you choose to do battle with? If the DNR even thought of picking a fight with the pig farmrs they'd be in for the costliest battle they could imagine. And everyone knows this including you. Which is exactly why once the court rules in favor of the ranches the DNR will fold up their tents and go home instead of going after both sides. Take that to the bank.
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As far as released....I believe that the population that started in one area that I am very familiar with... WAS NOT ACCIDENTAL. And I doubt if that was the only one.......And if this ban is allowed to stand and the date enforced, The escapes will be widespread in a very short time.

The thing you must understand is that even in an enclosure, it is very difficult to clear out hogs, even for free. They are very elusive.

When faced with heavy fines for having them, or for instance a buyer for the facility who will not close on it until the hogs are 100% gone.....The probability of an escape increases expotentially.
 

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That's a great question L&O. Some people don't want to take care of sick or injured animals they can't sell. some want to establish wild populations in their area. Some want to avoid being caught with an untagged animal in their facility, for example, remember this one?

"Men Charged in Smuggling Quarantined Deer Off Farm

...According to Mary Detloff, of the DNR, James and Brian Schuiteman, owners of J&B Whitetails, where the original deer was found, attempted to move a male deer from the facility on August 23, the day after the quarantine was issued...

Officers determined a live male white-tailed deer was in the trailer, with identification tags removed. Upon questioning the suspects, the officers learned it was the men’s intent to release the buck into the wild."
http://rockfordsquire.com/2009/03/05/men-charged-in-smuggling-quarantined-deer-off-farm/

This happened from a quarantined facility. Just imagine how much goes on when nobody is looking. :lol:

Scum bags do stuff you or I would not think of doing, and for reasons that probably would not occur to you.
And yet, the owner/operator of this facility was fully compensated for the destruction of all his deer by the State of Michigan. This in spite of the fact that he broke the law that should have voided any compensation. Other cervid owners on the other hand had their deer destroyed and only recieved letters saying the state of Michigan was facing severe budget constraints and could not reimburse them. Good to know the DNR reimbursed the "scum bag" for breaking the law and ignored the rest. I appreciate you bringing this up again .... I almost forgot about that keystone cop episode.
 

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The one with no social utility instead of the one with huge social utility.



The one with huge social utility instead of the one with no social utility.
Apparently you feel that excuses them from the same negligence that the other is being accused of doing?
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Apparently you feel that excuses them from the same negligence that the other is being accused of doing?
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Excuses? No.

Puts in context? Yes.

Social utility matters, and the public will always weigh it as part of a cost benefit analysis. You may not think it "right" or "fair" - but it's reality.

If you think you're going to change that reality and make the world "fair", you're deluded. If you think we SHOULD change that reality and make the world "fair", you're deluded.
 

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Negligence is put into context based on social utility? And you say I'm deluded? Lol I suppose the court will be deluded as well if/when they find in favor of the ranch owners?
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Negligence is put into context based on social utility?
Of course it is.

One need only look at the acceptable levels of societal harm for different activities. Activities with high amounts of social utility are allowed to continue even where they produce relatively high levels of societal harm. Activities with no social utility, not so much.

Lol I suppose the court will be deluded as well if/when they find in favor of the ranch owners?
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If the courts find in favor of penned hunting operations it will be on jurisdictional grounds, not equality under the law grounds. It's quite possible to argue that the legislature hasn't given the DNR adequate power to ban penned hunting operations - and that is where they may lose the case.

If the legislature passes law banning hog hunting, or obviously handing that power to the DNR, pigs will be banned and the courts won't stop it on any silly "equal protection" grounds.
 

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Just notice the clear lines here on M-S. Of those who are clearly in support of canned hunts, nearly all are well known, very anti-QDM posters, with the exception of Justin.

Those against canned hunts seem to mostly be those who are on the record of being very much for more QDM like changes.

You're often defined by who you surround yourself with.

Also notice, those for the canned hunts are typically serial DNR bashers.
For the bean counters. I am not for or against "Canned hunts", but I think that cervid farming has its place, and would not bash someone for "shopping" with a bow. To each his own is what I say.
I also believe that QDM has its place, and is a good option for SOME areas of Michigan, but not ALL areas of Michigan. Also, the perception on these boards that you are practicing QDM if all you do is pass on younger bucks, or limit buck harvest is laughable. It takes MUCH more than this to practice QDM.
I support some regulations imposed by the DNR and oppose some as well. I am never shy about giving my opinion.

Very few biologists will agree with you. In fact, moving concentrated animals who are in much closer contact with each other than wild animals, sharing the same feeding bins, and being transported to other enclosures where they do the same, greatly increases the likelihood of disease transmission. Ask yourself why the only incidence of CWD in Michigan has been in an enclosure.
I agree 100% that this is common knowlege. But the key words here are "transporting" and "moving". An isolated cervid enclosure is NOT going to spontaneously develop CWD. My point was that because everyone agrees of the danger of transporting cervids, we have current laws on the books that ban importation, and mandate testing at cervid facilities.
Here is a link that highlights the "movement" laws that are on the books in Michigan.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/USCWDregs_74407_7.pdf
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For the bean counters. I am not for or against "Canned hunts", but I think that cervid farming has its place, and would not bash someone for "shopping" with a bow. To each his own is what I say.
I also believe that QDM has its place, and is a good option for SOME areas of Michigan, but not ALL areas of Michigan. Also, the perception on these boards that you are practicing QDM if all you do is pass on younger bucks, or limit buck harvest is laughable. It takes MUCH more than this to practice QDM.
I support some regulations imposed by the DNR and oppose some as well. I am never shy about giving my opinion.


I agree 100% that this is common knowlege. But the key words here are "transporting" and "moving". An isolated cervid enclosure is NOT going to spontaneously develop CWD. My point was that because everyone agrees of the danger of transporting cervids, we have current laws on the books that ban importation, and mandate testing at cervid facilities.
Here is a link that highlights the "movement" laws that are on the books in Michigan.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/USCWDregs_74407_7.pdf
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I am 100% in favor of QDM, I support going back to one buck and would support much shorter seasons. I don't harvest anything from enclosures but don't care if others do. I don't have a problem with kids catching trout out of "trout ponds" and don't worry about global cooling, global warming, the bird flu or any other trumped up disasters that are politically motivated. I think the DNR used to be a fairly legitimate, efficient department but just like MUCC, they lost their way many years ago. Just another huge bureaucracy gone amuck and if you really want to know why they are trying to shut these places down it's simple....they don't want to to deal with them. They get paid the same regardless of how much work they actually do ....so hell yes, why not try to shut these places down and make their lives easier. If the Department of Ag went back to overseeing these facilities...you would not hear a peep from the DNR in my opinion.
 

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Tornado Jim
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Bio, we are still waiting for an explanation of why Indiana is having a pig problem
Do your own research. Life is not all black/white, either/or. Many of the publications I have cited talk about the various means of introducing hogs to the environment and the difficulty of removing them once established. I would suggest reading some of them.

You want some kind of gotcha moment instead of understanding the issues.

Indiana has had hogs a lot longer than we have. Look it up. The fact that they still have them should scare you, not make you feel justified in being against trying to fight them here.

If you don't have anything substantive to add to the discussion, I tire of your 20 questions routine.
 

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Do your own research. Life is not all black/white, either/or. Many of the publications I have cited talk about the various means of introducing hogs to the environment and the difficulty of removing them once established. I would suggest reading some of them.

You want some kind of gotcha moment instead of understanding the issues.

Indiana has had hogs a lot longer than we have. Look it up. The fact that they still have them should scare you, not make you feel justified in being against trying to fight them here.

If you don't have anything substantive to add to the discussion, I tire of your 20 questions routine.
Bio I'm not the one claiming that game farms are the main source like you. Here you have a perfect example of what is happening in Michigan and is happening the exact same in Indiana. Yet for your own personal agenda you are ignoring facts. That says alot on how serious someone should take you. The research is there. Feral hogs are not allowed and they are experiencing the same pig problem as us. So the main vector isn't ranches like you claim
 

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Tornado Jim
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Bio I'm not the one claiming that game farms are the main source like you. Here you have a perfect example of what is happening in Michigan and is happening the exact same in Indiana. Yet for your own personal agenda you are ignoring facts. That says alot on how serious someone should take you. The research is there. Feral hogs are not allowed and they are experiencing the same pig problem as us. So the main vector isn't ranches like you claim
It is not the same. Look into the history of feral pigs in MI vs. IN and you will see that it is not the same.

Live in bliss;).
 

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It is not the same. Look into the history of feral pigs in MI vs. IN and you will see that it is not the same.

Live in bliss;).
Bio your arguments are bias in the fact that you are against game ranches. You are for Michigan having the same laws as Indiana and ignoring the fact that even with these laws they still have a problem . And infact most states that haven't banned hogs still have a problem.
 

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Tornado Jim
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Got this email today:

During the last twelve months, 20 wild hogs have been trapped on a 480-acre site that includes three adjoining properties in Midland County. Six corral-type traps obtained through the Michigan Wild Hog Removal Program are being used there.

Jerry Steger and Shelly Fitting, two of the three persons working the traps, note that the animals have all been Eurasian wild hogs. Most have been juveniles, but the last two caught were a big boar and a pregnant sow.

In the last three years, Mr. Steger, who hunts deer every day during the season, has only seen two wild hogs on the site. There are quite a few homes in the area, yet most of those residents are unaware they are living in the midst of wild hogs. Stories like this are becoming more common in parts of Mid-Michigan.

Please report evidence of wild hogs to me at 989-865-6701 or to Tim Wilson of USDA Wildlife Services at 517-336-1928. We are particularly interested in any reports from the Thumb area of Michigan.

Pat Rusz

Director of Wildlife Programs

Michigan Wildlife Conservancy

Michigan Wildlife Conservancy
PO Box 393
6380 Drumheller Rd
Bath, MI 48808
Phone: 517-641-7677
Fax: 517-641-7877
[email protected]
 

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Tornado Jim
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More info on pigs. These are animals trapped/sighted in Mecosta (top 2) and Midland (bottom 6) counties. Raise your hands if you think these are escaped domestics:lol:.

















These are Eurasian boars and represent most of feral pigs seen/trapped/shot in Michigan.

Here is a note from the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy. They along with USDA are making traps available. There is no question in their minds that the main problem is with exotic pigs, not domestics. The only people I have heard saying otherwise is posters on this forum who have no experience in the matter.

The attached photos are of wild hogs at trapping sites in Midland (2011 – 2012) and Mecosta County (2010). To date, all hogs trapped through the Michigan Wild Hog Removal Program have been Eurasian wild hogs.

We are aware that some people are claiming the many hogs on the loose in Michigan are domestic animals from farms. This is simply not true. Across the state the hogs trapped, shot or photographed with trail cameras are Eurasian wild hogs with very few exceptions.

Please report evidence of wild hogs to me at 989-865-6701 or to Tim Wilson of USDA Wildlife Services at 517-336-1928. We are particularly interested in any reports from the Thumb area of Michigan.

Pat Rusz
Director of Wildlife Programs
Michigan Wildlife Conservancy


Some of you can bad mouth Pat Rusz for your various reasons, but keep in mind that Tim Wilson of USDA is of like mind. Tim and Pat visit a lot of the sites where feral hogs are a problem.
 

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I know of two instances regarding domestics that were loose. The first was an escaped pig. That pig was called home by the owner...here pig, pig, pig, while shaking the feed bag. The second was where 4 pigs were intentionally turned loose by a wanna be pig farmer who couldn't afford to feed them. After a month on their own they could not be captured, herded, tricked, no way, no how. They ultimately had to be shot. If they weren't shot they would have turned into quite a problem. Domestic or otherwise, pigs in the wild are big trouble.
 

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Tornado Jim
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Agreed. It happens. But there are those who argue against the DNRs actions to make Eurasion pigs illegal that would have us believe pork farmers are as much at fault as the "hunting" enclosures. It just ain't so. Not by a longshot.

If we only had domestics to worry about, well, we would be in exactly the same position we have been for a couple of hundred years or more. Farms raising pigs without a major problem occurring. Most of the documented pigs in this state are still found around the "hunting" enclosures they escaped from.
 
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