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Poz...I think you underestimate how difficult it is to locate a very small population of hogs, let alone get a crack at them. To anyone who has made the effort, the lack of sightings is completely understandable.

As we approach the deadline for the high fences, It doesnt appear that they are making a very serious effort to get rid of them. Maybe they are hoping for an injunction. At this point I would not be surprised if we see a sudden spike in escapes when the deadline nears. It was rumored that the escaped hogs east of houghton lake were something less than accidental.......And the owners recovery effort was certainly lacking in enthusiasm.
Swamp and Bio I believe you guys and what you are saying. Bio i don't think your pictures are fake. But you still have to look at the fact that people with hobby farms, which we have alot of here in Michigan, can go out buy a bunch of pigs and put them in a pen that might not hold them. And there is nothing you and I can do to stop them. Yet we want to shut down an industry that is possibly only responsible for some of the pigs that escaped.
We have the pork industry studying free ranging pig farms here in Michigan with Michigan state university. Look at the pictures these farm posted on their websites. Huge fields with nothing but a 3ft chicken fence holding the pigs in. Where is the outcry about the potential of pigs escaping from these facilities. There isn't any. Why?. Could it the pork industry has some pull. Why aren't you guys concerned about these free ranging farms.
also many maps show a possible migration of these pigs coming up from the south. It's not skipping over states, they're spreading their territory northward. Should we shut down an industry for something that could be happening naturally
 

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Tornado Jim
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The economic factors may be what you are considering but that is the least important factor when it comes to government intervention on American business owners. 'Divide and Conquer' isn"t just a chapter out of Sun Tzu"s Art of War but a well used tactic used to slowly destroy a groups mettle. The fact that you dont see this as an attack on hunting as well as a US citizens freedoms concerns the hell out of me. Once again fellow hunters are being used as foot soldiers employed by the groups that will never be happy until all hunting is abolished. The fact they continuously choose the practices that cause the most controversy is a well known tactic and just as usual some fall for it hook line and sinker. Does anyone truly believe that this isnt a war between anti"s and hunters and that its gone so far now that you now have no problem shutting down someones business FOR THEM?
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I cannot think of a single thing that taints hunters more than the existence of penned facilities. The idea of shooting animals in an enclosure is probably repulsive to most hunters and non-hunters alike. It is not a matter of hunters sticking together or not. There are lots of activities that hunters and non-hunters alike agree are wrong. Setting fires to drive game, or forcing herds over cliffs comes to mind, as well as shooting animals from a vehicle, or shooting game animals with a spot light. Most hunters are against these activities and are not accused of being devisive or not keeping a united front. Why support activities that give the anti-hunting groups a cause to attack hunting in general?
 

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Hunting repulses a lot of people period. Are you sure that is the argument you As a hunter would choose to use in an effort to close a business? What about the use of dogs? Poison pods? Trapping? Etc your argument is a very precarious position to put ANY type of hunting situation. One I would hope you think through a little better before using it.
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Tornado Jim
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Swamp and Bio I believe you guys and what you are saying. Bio i don't think your pictures are fake. But you still have to look at the fact that people with hobby farms, which we have alot of here in Michigan, can go out buy a bunch of pigs and put them in a pen that might not hold them. And there is nothing you and I can do to stop them. Yet we want to shut down an industry that is possibly only responsible for some of the pigs that escaped.
We have the pork industry studying free ranging pig farms here in Michigan with Michigan state university. Look at the pictures these farm posted on their websites. Huge fields with nothing but a 3ft chicken fence holding the pigs in. Where is the outcry about the potential of pigs escaping from these facilities. There isn't any. Why?. Could it the pork industry has some pull. Why aren't you guys concerned about these free ranging farms.
also many maps show a possible migration of these pigs coming up from the south. It's not skipping over states, they're spreading their territory northward. Should we shut down an industry for something that could be happening naturally
Poz, what you seem to miss is the majority of feral pigs in Michigan are Russian boars. There are some domestic looking pigs out there, yes. What happens is that people who have not experienced them latch onto the few domestics and try to sell that off as the norm. I say this not just because of my own experiences but because I have been following this issue for years and have looked at many photos of pigs killed in Michigan. Most of them are Eurasian.

As I have said before, if you feel strongly about this you should do some research. Pigs have only been at a problem level for about 10 years in Michigan, yet there have been domestic pigs here for hundreds of years. When domestic pigs get loose they tend to mill around and eventually get rounded up when the neighbors call the farmer. Almost all the male pigs are for pork production so they are neutered and cannot breed even if they do get loose.

What people tend to do is take the southern experience and extrapolate it to Michigan. In Texas and Florida most feral pigs are descended from domestics that were first brought to Florida and Texas by the Spanish. Virtually all domestic animals, including pigs, were free range in Texas. When a family wanted some pork they would entice the pigs with bait and catch them or kill them. Most of the population of pigs down there were descended from domestic pigs, and many continue to exhibit domestic phenotypes, although, due to the proliferation of imported exotics their population consists of mixtures of domestic and exotic phenotypes.

In contrast, domestic animals were not free range in Michigan, but were kept in pens and fed by farmers. Throughout our history, there has been virtually no record of any problems related to feral domestic pigs. It is only in recent years that wild pigs have shown up on our Michigan landscape, and most of these have the Russian phenotype.

Even though there were feral pigs throughout much of the south for hundreds of years, the first incidence of Eurasion pigs in the U.S. is believed to have resulted from the importation of Eurasion pigs into North Carolina from Germany in 1912 for hunting purposes (Jones 1959, The European wild boar in North Carolina. North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission, Game Division, Raleigh, NC USA).

As I said, if you do the research you will find that most feral pigs in Michigan are of the Eurasion variety. Mayer explains that it is easy to determine the type by morphology alone: http://agrilife.org/texnatwildlife/feral-hogs/distinguishing-feral-hogs-from-introduced-wild-boar/

 

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Tornado Jim
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Hunting repulses a lot of people period. Are you sure that is the argument you As a hunter would choose to use in an effort to close a business? What about the use of dogs? Poison pods? Trapping? Etc your argument is a very precarious position to put ANY type of hunting situation. One I would hope you think through a little better before using it.
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That all depends on what your definition of "hunting" is.;)
 

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That all depends on what your definition of "hunting" is.;)
No bio, it matters not what MY definition of hunting is, but rather what the definition is for those you seem to be agreeing with and helping to end someones business. It is those people that could care less if you use a dog, a bullet, a fenced enclosure, or a free ranging forest. You will never appease them. But you apparently have no trouble helping them chip away at the stone just because you too find 'hunting' in this particular fashion to be repulsive.
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Report from USDA
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdard/WS_Feral_Hog_summary_for_Ag_Comm_110911_2_368527_7.pdf

The next 2 show sightings kills from 2010 & 2011. Note Mecosta Co. 7 kills in '10 No sightings in '11
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/2011FSMap_010512_372841_7.pdf

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/2009FSMap_324708_7.pdf

Charts back to '01 A lot more sightings now...more pigs or are we just reporting them now ?
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/FS_sightings_kill_1_5_12_373783_7.pdf

Interesting to read the what the ranch owners why to say about their operations.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mda/Aug._11_2010_Ag_Commiss_MINUTES_332825_7.pdf

L & O
 

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Tornado Jim
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No bio, it matters not what MY definition of hunting is, but rather what the definition is for those you seem to be agreeing with and helping to end someones business. It is those people that could care less if you use a dog, a bullet, a fenced enclosure, or a free ranging forest. You will never appease them. But you apparently have no trouble helping them chip away at the stone just because you too find 'hunting' in this particular fashion to be repulsive.
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Actually, my main concern is with the economic damage that will be done by pigs if they become endemic. It will surely be 1000s of times greater than the size of the industry you are trying to protect. It could eventually impact virtually every property owner and farmer in the state. It is called the greater good...

The good vs. bad argument regarding enclosures is a side issue.
 

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The industry I'm trying to protect is the 'hunting' industry. But even that takes a back burner to the freedoms of a US business holder I would like to see protected. In contrast you are readily admitting that one form of hunting is repulsive to you and that one business should be shut down instead of increasing enforcement and penallties because they have had escapees while another business should be left alone even though they have the same issue. THAT is where we differ.
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Tornado Jim
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Bio if you look at orher states that have banned feral hogs or never allowed the ownership of them , their feral hog problem is still increasing. Why? Could it be that they are escaping from farms. Or as some Indiana officials think,are spreading their range.
Watch the videos poz. They explain the different mechanisms by which pigs can colonize an area. In areas where they already exist, the main way they increase their numbers is not by escaping. It is by breeding. As they breed, they continue to colonize by spreading their range. You have to kill 50-70% of them per year to just keep a population stable.

In areas where they don't already exist, like Michigan as recently as about 2000, and where they are not adjacent to regions with existing populations, the main way they have colonized is by escaping or by purposeful release by idiot hunters.

Again, if you are really interested in understanding this topic, why don't you do some research? There are hundreds of documents available from reliable sources. Here are a few....I don't put them here for you because I believe you have no interest in understanding the issues, but others might be interested.

Berryman Institute--Utah State and Mississippi State Universities http://www.berrymaninstitute.org/pdf/managing-feral-pigs.pdf
"Pure strains of Eurasian boar reportedly are rare;
nevertheless, at least a few small localized populations
of pure animals exist in the United States (e.g.,
Michigan), having originated from farm-raised wild
boar brought down from Canada (Mayer 2009). "

Wisconsin:
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/publ/wlnotebook/pig.htm
"In locations where feral pigs have more recently been discovered it is likely that these "run-wild" individuals are the result of unintentional escapes from domestic swine facilities, escapes or releases from game farms, or illegal stocking."

Missouri
http://mdc.mo.gov/landwater-care/in...ment/feral-hog-control/shoot-feral-hogs-sight
"The situation took a wrong turn in the 1990s when hog hunting for recreation began to gain popularity. Groups started raising and promoting European wild boar as a form of alternative agriculture and for hunting on licensed shooting areas. It wasn’t long before many of these hogs escaped or were intentionally released on public land."

Mississippi State Extension Service and Alabama Cooperative Extension System: http://myfwc.com/media/1357551/WildPigManagementAL.pdf
"THE HUMAN FACTOR
The popularity of wild pigs as a game species has
played a major role in the expansion of their range
throughout the United States. In some cases, the
sudden presence of wild pigs in an area where
they previously did not exist can be attributed to
escapes of stocked animals from privately owned,
“game-proof” fenced hunting preserves. In other
cases, the sudden presence of wild pigs is a result
of illegal translocation: the practice of capturing
wild pigs, transporting them to new locations, and
releasing them into the wild."
 

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Tornado Jim
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The industry I'm trying to protect is the 'hunting' industry. But even that takes a back burner to the freedoms of a US business holder I would like to see protected. In contrast you are readily admitting that one form of hunting is repulsive to you and that one business should be shut down instead of increasing enforcement and penallties because they have had escapees while another business should be left alone even though they have the same issue. THAT is where we differ.
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All that would be understandable if our problem were caused by escapees from farms. Facts are, we have had hog farming in Michigan for a couple hundred years and it has not become a problem until the last 10, which happens to coincide with the flourishing of establishments that bring Russain pigs in for killing in pens. You really want to balance the interests of the corn and soybean industry against that of fenced "hunting?"
 

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Did you read the highlighted Link you supplied bio? I'm wondering because EVERY SINGLE ONE INCLUDED DOMESTIC HOGS as part of the equation. EVERY ONE OF THEM! As for you stating the problem only beginning 10 yrs ago? Thats about the start of the information boom is it not? Funny thing how a number of long running issues have come to the forefront in just the last 10 yrs. Must be a coincidence huh?
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Tornado Jim
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Did you read the highlighted Link you supplied bio? I'm wondering because EVERY SINGLE ONE INCLUDED DOMESTIC HOGS as part of the equation. EVERY ONE OF THEM!
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Yes, I read the linked documents. "Part of the equation..."

In the equation 5 + 95, 5 is "part of the equation."

There are few experts who think that domestic pigs escaped from farms make up much of the equation in our state. Most think that they are mainly escaping or being released from hunting establishments and from the people who breed pigs for them. You can think what you want. But I pray we have the good sense to outlaw these practices as do IN and WI.


"Wild hogs cannot be imported into Indiana, possessed in captivity, sold, traded, bartered, leased or gifted." http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/6485.htm

"It is illegal to operate a captive feral pig hunting facility in the state of Wisconsin. It is also illegal to stock feral pigs for hunting purposes or to release hogs into the wild." http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/hunt/pig/pig_hunting.htm Note: WI has not completely eliminated the Eurasion hog industry for food, but is working in that direction.
 

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Yes, I read the linked documents. "Part


"Wild hogs cannot be imported into Indiana, possessed in captivity, sold, traded, bartered, lea
Yet Indiana is experiencing the same pig growth as Michigan . So your logic of game ranches being the main source of the problem is flawed. Why with a ban on pigs in Indiana there is still a problem.
 

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.........
There are few experts who think that domestic pigs escaped from farms make up much of the equation in our state. Most think that they are mainly escaping or being released from hunting establishments and from the people who breed pigs for them. ........
.....
Can you tell us who the experts are from Michigan that believe this ? Why would you think that any pig is being released when they can be sold ? That makes no sense to me.
Last fall I talked with a Mi. Wildlife Biologists and she felt that most pigs being reported and killed were domestics and were escaping from people with the worst fences.....hobby farmers, 4H kids and Amish farmers.
She also stated that more pigs are being reported in the last 5 years or so since the DNR has greatly increased their efforts to collect this information from DNR employees, hunters, general public and farmers.
Do you know if the DNR tries to get pictures and/or DNA from all kills reported.

L & O
 

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You beat me to it Poz. What part of the equation does domestic pigs figure in that particular equation bio? Apparently quite a bit more than the 0 the hog ranches are responsible for.
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Once again I think my position onthis matter should be clarified. I believe that no business should ever be closed over another if the same set of issues is borne From both. Instead I would rather see a higher enforcement rate of both parties with the cost attached to clean up and damage shared by the responible parties.
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Tornado Jim
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Can you tell us who the experts are from Michigan that believe this ? Why would you think that any pig is being released when they can be sold ?
That's a great question L&O. Some people don't want to take care of sick or injured animals they can't sell. some want to establish wild populations in their area. Some want to avoid being caught with an untagged animal in their facility, for example, remember this one?

"Men Charged in Smuggling Quarantined Deer Off Farm

...According to Mary Detloff, of the DNR, James and Brian Schuiteman, owners of J&B Whitetails, where the original deer was found, attempted to move a male deer from the facility on August 23, the day after the quarantine was issued...

Officers determined a live male white-tailed deer was in the trailer, with identification tags removed. Upon questioning the suspects, the officers learned it was the men’s intent to release the buck into the wild."
http://rockfordsquire.com/2009/03/05/men-charged-in-smuggling-quarantined-deer-off-farm/

This happened from a quarantined facility. Just imagine how much goes on when nobody is looking. :lol:

Scum bags do stuff you or I would not think of doing, and for reasons that probably would not occur to you.
 
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