Wisconson cwd map

Discussion in 'Whitetail Deer Disease' started by dfbear, Dec 3, 2019.

  1. Hunters Edge

    Hunters Edge

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    It definitely does, after crops are harvested they move and are concentrated where food availability is. Also many people in Michigan feed deer for viewing or unknowing by bird feeders. So yes in many agricultural areas it will work because many areas are adjacent to public property or forest. Also deer attract deer because of there social behavior.

    Take a ride in the spring and see the masses of deer hitting the AG fields in the spring. Do you really believe they were not yarding up during the winter?
     
  2. poz

    poz

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    Joe, it won't stop because they are scared to go after food plots. My plot has deer on it basically all year long. I find numerous droppings in it, I'm sure they urinate in it, and they eat half the leaves on the plants and leave the other half for another deer. Yet I am told it's okay to have a food plot. They know if they banned food plots they would lose all the support from certain SIGs. That's why they won't do it and that's why the disease won't be stopped.

    I will make a prediction. If they ever come out and decide to ban food plots, you will see many of these anti bait biologists reverse their stand that feed spreads disease. Or they will say it's not as big a threat as we thought it was. Because they will try to save their beloved food plots
     
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  3. Waif

    Waif

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    O.k. Ineffectual results to be expected the first year alright by you?

    Lets revisit your claim of adequate browse in C.W.D. areas.
    You're invited to take a boots on the ground survey.
    Despite this years ag. anomaly /wet harvest delay , you'll be able to measure/estimate browse tonnage. And track deer to see multiple properties involved while nomadic willy nilly scrounging is in effect.

    Deer were tugging woody browse in Sept.. What matters is when woody browse is the sum of browse come late winter.
    And it is not adequate. Regardless of prior ag. access.

    Did deer interact physically this year? Did they concentrate? Socialize including the same socialization methods deer have always exhibited? Of course they did.

    Bedding areas were shared as ever. Spring's green up was attended in specific areas where deer congregated as ever.

    Had bait existed , it's tonnage may have (feel free to figure) substituted in part for other browse.
    A ton per deer rough estimate per year. Minus all months but the bottle neck of winter ones (to argue tonnage conservatively despite the minor ag. influence).
    Minus quality of browse vs deer prime requirements...Leaving a sum vs deer numbers , and the question...Are deer in prime health less vulnerable to disease?
    Is disease worth less health in deer in exchange for avoiding food source concentrations?
    It would be more so if no concentration existed outside of baiting or supplemental feeding.

    Science shouts hands off and let nature take her course sometimes when intervention changes a natural order.
    But "hunters" are not all scientists. And the natural order has been altered greatly by more than hunters decisions. While hunters have been the predominant tool to cause reductions.

    Baiting can give a target a pause. And can transfer cooties.
    Should science define what methods of transferal are acceptable? Or hunters?
    The deer don't care. And outside of baiting , are going to ignore science choices of potential transfer. Caring little where a disease ridden body ends up. And likely (maybe as in science) encountering few dead bodies resulting from C.W.D..
    How many deer have you seen die/dead from C.W.D. and not from being shot? Is that real? Or is your faith they exist somewhere here more real?
     
  4. Forest Meister

    Forest Meister

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    Don't get all worked up! I believe you are twisting thing, much the same as in post #21, but I will bite. My comments were merely in response to one of your earlier statement quoted below:
    • "2.) Only known way to limit CWD spread is to limit, DIRECT CONTACT of cervids as well as limit incidence to levels below .01%; approaches to limit direct contact and contact with concentrations of urine and feces include herd density reductions, decreasing buck segment age structure, limiting fecal/oral contact at concentrated feeds sites that are not agriculture or silvaculture related i.e. baiting sites"
    Maybe I am misreading but that statement seems to indicate that concentrations of deer resulting from non agricultural or silvicultural situations is more likely to result in CWD than concentrations of deer resulting from farming and forestry related practices. Honestly, I just don't follow that line of logic. Isn't a concentration of deer a concentration of deer?. No matter where a cervid contacts CWD it is stiill a death sentence. FM
     
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  5. Waif

    Waif

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    Where we at here where I manage....Year 4 under C.W.D. regulations?
    Year one ,herd reduced a third.
    Next year , halved.
    Following year , Red flag , no doe kills on my and multiple adjacent properties.
    A handful of deer.
    This year might be lowest kill rate in recent history. Though last years restraint made my kill more tolerable. Slightly.

    And how has the herd reduction affected tested prevalence rates in kind?
    Maybe the bait ban will change that on top of the new antler point restriction.
    Nevermind the effect of few deer on hunter participation or satisfaction.

    Better for the deer those fewer numbers. But a management fail of hunter satisfaction.
    Without greater recruitment vs current low rate of fawns ,where is the future hunter satisfaction supposed to come from?
    One in how many hunters success rate is acceptable to the state? And what is acceptable to hunters before they go elsewhere?
    Another red flag is the continued reduced participation observed again in my locale. (Not a poor success area historically by any means). There are hunters that do their homework and hunt the better odds.

    C.W.D. high rates has not (in my nonprofessional observation) been a draw to hunters.
    Should participation levels continue to drop , how will that affect prevalence?
    It will continue to improve my sightings of fewer remaining meandering deer until when/if numbers increase, so from a selfish perspective it will be a small gain.
    But for those previous hunters , and the surrounding land not hunted when I'm on mine....Is it effective management of either deer or hunters?
     
  6. BigWoods Bob

    BigWoods Bob

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    I'm done with these baiting threads-- the number of "arm chair" experts that try to justify the continuation of baiting, based on "their" idea of what is logical is ridiculous, and frankly embarrassing as a hunter and Sportsman. If you guys tried to pedal your "theories" on why baiting should be allowed to the general public versus the management plan of the trained Scientific experts, you would be lose all credibility immediately! We hire State Biologists to make decisions based on their training and expertise, yet when that decision steps on our toes a little, we whine and cry, and then try to come up with reasons why the theory is wrong. Worse yet, some people even challenge the very Science and scientists credibility! Unbelievable....we are truly our own worst enemy!

    FWIW, I'm not anti-baiting, but to me, even the remote possibly that me not throwing out some corn, beets or carrots, "MIGHT" help slow the spread of CWD, is reason enough to go along with the biologist's recommendations. Guess for many of you, "getting your deer" trumps everything else--- Ridiculous and Sad!!

    Sent from my SM-A505U using Michigan Sportsman mobile app
     
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  7. Waif

    Waif

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    See ya!

    Yeah. My toes been stepped on.
    Baiting "may" be bad. Just ask the biologists.
    In their opinion is there solid evidence? Then why do they say "may"?
    (Sorry biologists , your opinions are valued and should be up front. I'm sure it's not pleasant when as often they take a back seat to social issues and profits.)
    Older bucks as an experiment in a known (my) C.W.D. zone is good for C.W.D. concerns.(?) What biologists agreed with that? (No , no names please.)
    And that with no expectation of doing anything positive regarding control or reduction of C.W.D. for the years of the "Experiment".
    What part of that addresses what exists today with C.W.D. concern as a planned response?
    Uniformity? Measurable compliance? Substitute baiting for C.W.D. plan and see the same disjointed approach. Measurable? Enforceable? Consistency?


    Without realism in regulation and management of a resource , control is out the window.
    As is faith in those tasked with regulations when they blow hot and cold in the same breath. ( In opposite ways in C.W.D. response example. Sans realism) .
    Dealing with today should be done before finding out what happens when best known (per biologists) response is ignored in C.W.D. before riding a rainbow for years while experimenting with something unrelated to effective response to C.W.D. in a known denser infection rate area.

    When the state don't care what happens in high exposure areas and ignores best planned response that it reality(current and planned) based... , So what about what bait does elsewhere?
    It's not as if the state is trying not to increase risks itself by all means possible..
    Increasing age in the incubator/ hot zone. How could that not be success in management?
    But a carrot? Shudder. Could have cooties.
     
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  8. Cjs180

    Cjs180

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    I live in WI. Not sure where you guys have heard the bait ban overturned. Harvest #’s we’re down 25% this year and license sales were down 2%. We still have 57% of the corn crops in the fields yet and being a late season plus many hunting sites including mine were underwater contributed to a low harvest. Trust me walking through water and muck half way up your knees, there was basically zero movement in those areas compared to normal years.

    my father did shoot a small buck that had plenty of corn in it. Nearest corn field is about 1.5 miles away and we are in a no baiting zone. Doesn’t mean that somebody wasn’t baiting illegally but I don’t think there is anyone baiting around us.
     
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  9. Tilden Hunter

    Tilden Hunter

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    They can't ban food plots, because it would be too difficult to define what is or is not a food plot.
     
  10. poz

    poz

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    I'm sure hunter integrity would come into play and the anti bait guys will voluntarily give up their food plots. Lol. If a hunter plants something for deer and he doesn't know the purpose of what he planted, then he is not a hunter.
     
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  11. Justsayin

    Justsayin

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    FM - Appreciate your logic and posts. Critical thinking is good...

    There is a tendency to imply and treat all sources of potential prion exposure as equal. They are not. There is also a long history of focusing on sources which contain the least concentration of prions while neglecting to address those with exponentially higher concentrations.

    Studies have shown the prion infectivity of 1 gram of CWD positive brain material is roughly equivalent to 33,000 gallons of urine from exclusively CWD positive deer. Feces and saliva are slightly higher risk than urine, but virtually nothing compared to high risk discards.

    The only effective control measure is to remove positive deer. While I don't support a kill em all approach, I also do not believe restricting selection provides necessary control. Rather it will ensure the persistence of CWD positive deer and whatever effect they have while living and upon the environment after death.

    It seems logical that if we agree to control the source, all other indirect risks decrease as well.
     
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  12. Cork Dust

    Cork Dust

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    Waif, point-out the paragraphs, sentences, or even one sentence within the CWD Management Plan segment that states that hunter satisfaction, success, and recruitment within the CWD zones are the concomitant focus of a plan that is likely a decades-long focused reduction in deer density and CONTAINMENT of disease spread?

    IF it ain't there, then your expectations are neither rational, nor reasonable.

    Since "you manage" for deer on your lands. I assume you are implying a level of expertise at least equivalent that of professional biologists and foresters, so let's see YOUR rendition of how to manage CWD while holding hunter satisfaction, recruitment and success at levels YOU deem acceptable. I'll make the popcorn...!
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  13. Cork Dust

    Cork Dust

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    insert the word, " areas with baiting" in you last paragraph, what the thread's subject title is. By maintaining baiting in CWD management zones it serves as another ADDITIVE means of concentrating deer...management efforts are geared to lower density and reduce deer concentration. Contact with CWD infected deer is not a guaranteed death sentence, animal health status also plays a role in infection risk and rate.
     
  14. Cork Dust

    Cork Dust

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    Well, feeding birds in winter makes sense. Feeding birds at any other time of year just serves to concentrate them to be killed by feral and domestic cats.

    For a guy who hunts, you don't understand deer biology very well. Deer go into winter at maximum body fat content and generally, good physical condition. Their basal metabolic rates (BMR)fluctuate over the annual cycle, even in southern Michigan, reaching their annual low in about two weeks. As daylight increases in the Spring, BMR begins to ramp back up increasing their physiologic caloric demands. What areas experience green-up first in spring: Open fields, road edges and agricultural plots, or woodlots and forestland? Why? Elevated photoperiod and an increasing sun angle, plus the dark organic matter absorbs heat during daylight. How many calories are contained in woody browse versus spring green growth? Deer aggregate in winter in the CWD zone for a variety of reasons, most of them related to predator avoidance and protection, as well as the benefits of lowered snow depths on trails during and after storm events, wind protection and consequent heat loss reductions. They do not remain concentrated in a WDC for the duration of the winter, as they do in the U.P. and far northern lower Michigan. The frequently disperse from heavy cover to feed, particularly as the winter transitions into spring. They do not engage is large scale relocation as you continue to imply within the CWD zone in lower Michigan. It just isn't a real phenomena. Winter kill losses in that area are negligible, compared to the U.P.

    You do understand that this is why there are more deer in southern Michigan than the U.P. now, don't you? When I first came of age to hunt deer while living down there, the opposite was still the case; more deer in the U.P. than southern Michigan. Milder winters, ample forage and agriculture access shifted numbers through time.
     
  15. Forest Meister

    Forest Meister

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    Now that is the direct, concise, factual, and unemotional information I have been trying to elicit. Thank you! FM