Part 2; Does it bother any of you...

Discussion in 'Michigan Trapping and Varmint Hunting' started by Patrickr, Apr 25, 2018.

  1. Patrickr

    Patrickr

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    92
    that the MDNR is proposing restrictions on the use of exposed baits while trapping?

    From what I was told by Adam Bump, the MDNR is recommending no setting of traps within 30 feet of an exposed bait. And any exposed bait/attractant can not exceed 36 square inches. I am supposing that would apply to flesh, bones, hide, fur, wool, feathers, etc., etc..

    According to Adam Bump, the last Furbearer Working Group meeting held up in St. Ignace in March was attended by members of one or more Raptor and Wildlife Rehabilitator groups. They were upset about too many raptors getting caught accidentally in sets made right up next to exposed baits. I doubt their word without official documentation by a CO or biologist that witnessed the raptor in the trap. Otherwise how do we know that the bird wasn't injured or killed by an inexperienced person attempting to release the bird. How do we know if the raptor was ever really in a trap? We don't. Without the documentation or DNR witness, how do we know these stories aren't being fabricated to outlaw trapping or to restrict it even further than it is already? But while I am highly skeptical of those stories, Adam Bump told me he released an unhurt Red Tailed Hawk this past season from a legally set trap next to exposed 'rat carcasses. My question now is, did he file an official report concerning the incident with the trapper's name, etc., etc.? I am even skeptical of Adam's story as it is possible that some people within the MDNR have an anti trapping agenda. That agenda is to eliminate the financial rewards of fur harvesting. I have been told numerous times by MDNR CO's and Biologists that trappers/fur hunters "aren't supposed to be able to make money off from wildlife." RESTRICTIONS ARE A WAY TO ACCOMPLISH THAT GOAL! We call it death by a thousand cuts. Using what amounts to statistically irrelevant accidental catch/kill numbers as a basis for adding more restrictions is just flat out chicken...t, in my opinion. If these groups were threatening to push for the outlawing of all trapping as Adam told me, why isn't the MDNR defending trapping as a scientifically approved management tool and site the statistical chances of a non-target accidental raptor catch as being too insignificant to warrant any restrictions? How many raptors are accidentally killed every day by hitting motor vehicles on the roadways of Michigan? How many are injured or killed by hitting power lines, windmills, or even tree limbs? I don't see these groups pushing for restrictions against motor vehicles, power lines, windmills, etc., etc..

    I can see the reasoning behind not allowing any traps within 30 feet of an exposed bait such as a large carcass like a deer or horse, or a bunch of muskrat/beaver/woodchuck carcasses dumped on a pile or small area. I can see the need for large baits/small carcasses to be covered with brush, straw, ground duff, dirt, or placed in a hole. I can live with this portion of the restriction.

    But I do not see the need for the state to be so knit picky over the size of a piece of hide, a single smaller chunk/piece of meat or fish, bone, hide, etc., etc.. It is just another burdensome restriction designed to keep people from making money.

    What do you say? Will this affect your methods of trapping?
     
    Hunters Edge, Fool'em and Seldom like this.
  2. Thirty pointer

    Thirty pointer

    Messages:
    4,946
    Likes Received:
    4,986
    Location:
    kent county mi.
    Ya with all the 10s of thousands of trappers these days we need to make it harder for them :mad:
     
    Sparky23, Hunters Edge and Fool'em like this.

  3. Fool'em

    Fool'em

    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    1,065
    Location:
    SW MI
    Reality is how many trappers use exposed bait. Only a small portion use it so any negative impact is negligible.
    I can see it going wrong for many of us unintentionally. Say a mouse drags my bait out of the pocket, or boat wash grabs it and leaves it exposed. How about that cow skull backing on the field edge.
    I agree Patrickr MDNR is attacking trapping. Attempting to regulate it out of existence.

    Threatening birds my a**! The number of birds of any kind hurt or killed by a trap doesn't even register on the chart.
    I say prove it is a cause with statistical data to back it up or its nothing more than anti trapping agenda being carried out by our MDNR.
     
    Sparky23, Waif and Hunters Edge like this.
  4. wicklundrh

    wicklundrh Premium Member

    Messages:
    2,119
    Likes Received:
    2,921
    Location:
    Dansville
    I have heard of birds being trapped in the past. That said, in every instance I have heard of, it was always do in part to the lack of knowledge and experience from the person that trapped it.

    They all went something like this:
    I put out a few deer carcasses on my property to hunt coyotes. I found tracks but never saw one. I setup a few traps around the carcass.

    My question to them was always the same: Why didn't you put the carcas in a location so you could funnel the animal where you wanted them to come from and go to? Then, why didn't you trap the trail that was leading in to and away from said bait site? Following closly by: do you know how many square inches are in that #2 duke you purchased from Gander Mountain? Do you know how many square inches are in and around that bait you setup? Was it going to be blind luck that the animal in question stepped directly on the set number of square inches your #2 duke possessed?

    Thanks for the info Patrick. That brings up a lot of "What if's" as Fool'em pointed out. Too many times it seems that we hear about these meetings "after the fact".

    I supose there will be a fine line between "lure" and "bait" too. Eventually it will be up to blind luck and square inches to catch our target animals!
     
    Waif likes this.
  5. BigJoe.

    BigJoe.

    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    33
    This is one of those rules that may help trappers and may in some cases hinder a trapper.
    Exposed bait can be easy pickings for raptors. If a trap is bedded within say, 6 to 12 inches from the exposed bait there would be a good chance of a raptor stepping around while pecking at the bait.
    We all know it can happen even with a dirt hole a tuff of sheep's wool as a hole plug/lure holder.
    Now, for those un intentional exposed baits. The MTPCA has sent a number of C.O.s to the trappers college for reasons like this. So they may get a better understanding of how we as Trappers do what we do and more importantly, why we do it.
    If you unintentionally had exposed bait the C.O. can look at your set and see what your intention was.
    Doing our part as responsible trappers to catch target animals, you know, like possums and not non target animals. We as Trappers do great things when we police ourselves.
    Those who see us catching non target animals believe that all we do is set traps randomly in hopes of catching something.
    Being as responsible as we can and being as ethical as we can will go far when viewed by the public.
     
    wicklundrh likes this.
  6. mjh4

    mjh4

    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    170
    I use to trap and I respect responsible trappers but last year behind my parents house not 20yds into a field was a large leg hold trap (no pads on the jaws) with a deer carcass next to it for bait I assume yotes anyways there's houses everywhere with kids, dogs and cats running all around the edge of this field with the trap not even 20yds away talk about irresponsible I walked out to the trap to see which house this moron was living in to have a chat with him but he never came out. Most trappers are carefull where they set traps in regards to the safety of kids or pets but this was just plain stupid I stopped a golden retriever that was walking right up to the trap. So I talked to the land owner and he said nobody had permission to set traps on his property. I just don't understand why anybody would set a large trap that close to people's houses.


    Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman
     
  7. Patrickr

    Patrickr

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    92
    MJH4, yes there are some irresponsible people out setting traps just as there are irresponsible pet owners who let their "valuable family pet", that is just like a family member, run at will in violation of the Michigan Leash Law. In the situation you mentioned the person setting the trap was either a poacher, a trespasser, or a newbie wanna-be a trapper who is just starting out and doesn't know anything about laws or trapping, or a combination of two or three of the above. But I do have a couple of questions for you; (1) Did you or the landowner report this situation to the Game Warden, Report All Poaching, or the local Law Enforcement agency?, (2) What qualifies in your opinion as a "large leg hold trap", and why would it need pads on the jaws?, and (3) Did you track down the moron owner of the free running Golden Retriever and have a chat with him about his dog running loose is in violation of the Michigan Leash Law?

    BigJoe, we are slowly and systematically being restricted right out of existence by the MDNR and NRC, sometimes with the blessing of our organized trapper associations, over issues that are statistically insignificant, by a fear of public perception, because the animal rights groups have threatened us, because a hounds man has threatened to take the MDNR to court, and because other states are doing this or that, so we should as well. Think of all the restrictions that have been forced upon us over the last 50 years, then ask yourself if they helped us or hurt our ability to be efficient, humane, and profitable while fur harvesting. I'll start another thread in a day or two entitled "Death By A Thousand Cuts".
     
    jeffm, Fool'em and Seldom like this.
  8. Seldom

    Seldom

    Messages:
    1,625
    Likes Received:
    595
    Location:
    Midland, MI
    Again, another OUTSTANDING post Patrickr!!

    Because of the continuing restrictive, downward spiral of restrictions and regulations forced upon MI trappers I've always wondered why the MI trapping organizations don't seek help in the fight. Half of my career was in a union and during that time local union leadership consisting of plant employees, was voted in by us, their fellow workers. You know, local president, vicepres-etc. but when contract time came around every three years, a whole new ballgame came to town. The huge global chemical company brought in it's labor lawyers to negotiate a new contract and the union brought in their international lawyers/negotiating team. Our local union leadership was told to sit and keep their mouths shut unless asked a question but not answer until after leaving the room to confer with the international boys. Nobody in their right mind would ever consider having local union officials who come from being workers(production employees, tradesmen, janitors, etc) in the plant , negotiate a new contract. Why do trappers in MI think their organizations are so different that they can negotiate with the lobbyist, lawyers of the opposition???
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  9. mjh4

    mjh4

    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    170
    I do agree with what you've just said about restrictions on trapping I have trapped mink and muskrats in years past and it seems it's getting harder to be a trapper now days with all the anti trappers and restricted regulations. My only complaint about that situation was using such a large trap it looked quite a bit bigger than a #5 Bridger long spring. And the fact it was in a residential neighborhood, and yes the golden retriever should not have been running around the edge of the field and it's the dog owners fault for that but why set it that close to the houses Is beyond me. I've been hunting for 40yrs and would never think of doing such a thing I was just a little ticked off about it with kids playing less than 20yds away and the fact he was poaching. Trapping is a way to make a living and a way of life to some people in this great state and many other states and I am 100% for trapping, hunting and fishing I just wish some people would realize when they do things like that it hurts all the responsible trappers out there. We have to stick together against the animal rights people they just don't understand that the majority of sportsman respect and actually care about the animals we take. In my opinion we do far more for wildlife than those animal rights people ever thought of doing they just don't get it!


    Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman
     
  10. Patrickr

    Patrickr

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    92
    Seldom, I'm in complete agreement with you. I view fur harvesting differently than most people do as I know what the US Supreme Court has ruled when it comes to harvesting natural resources and the states allowing them to be sold into the interstate commerce system. It is for those reasons that I view fur harvesting as a commercial activity instead of a recreational one. And because of that our trapping associations need to operated and governed as tax exempt, non profit, PROFESSIONAL TRADE ASSOCIATIONS instead of a good ole' boys sportsmen associations. We need professionals running our associations full time. We need lawyers on our payroll. And we need our own full time lobbyists in the halls of Congress. And by our own I mean our own, not the lawyer(s) or lobbyists representing the USSA or the NTA. Trapping consist of fur harvesting as well as nuisance wildlife management/ADC. As such, trapping is a commercial business activity, not a recreational sporting activity like hunting game animals for food and trophies. As a commercial business activity trapping is conducted as a "hobby" or as a "profession" based on IRS guidelines. Until we, the trappers of Michigan, get our act together and conduct our activities in a more professional manner we will continue to die the death of a thousand cuts as we are negotiating with professionals that are out of our league.

    BigJoe, I don't know about you but I do not want a CO to have the authority to decide if my set is utilizing an exposed bait correctly or not, intentionally or unintentionally. That is too much power in the hands of an individual that may or may not have a personal agenda. That may or may not have a personality clash with me or any other trapper for some unknown reason on any given day. IF the MDNR wants to restrict how close a trap can be set to an exposed bait, above ground level, of say a 5 gallon quantity, in the name of protecting raptors, I don't have a problem with that as long as the distance isn't greater than 20 or 30 feet. Any restrictions other than that are unnecessarily intrusive for no reason other than to hurt trappers and trapping efforts.
     
  11. wicklundrh

    wicklundrh Premium Member

    Messages:
    2,119
    Likes Received:
    2,921
    Location:
    Dansville
    I hate all groups that say they speak on behalf of the masses!
     
  12. Patrickr

    Patrickr

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    92
    Unfortunately wicklundrh, unless one is an attorney the MDNR will let you talk when the time comes for input from the "cheap seats" but an individual rarely if ever gets to sit at the table with the representatives of organizations, and that is where it matters. Been there and done that as well. But there are ways around that situation in which you can have their undivided attention and be taken seriously, but I won't discuss it on a public forum.
     
  13. wicklundrh

    wicklundrh Premium Member

    Messages:
    2,119
    Likes Received:
    2,921
    Location:
    Dansville
    The original post I had went from several lines down to one condensed line. I know exactly where you are coming from my friend!