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HELP!! Cant decide on a 450 ar upper or a ruger bolt..

Discussion in 'Rifles' started by Titan34, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. Ken

    Ken

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    The AR's are the problem with the 450. They are why the factory loads are kept weak. It can be loaded easily to 460 S &W levels in a bolt or single shot. Accuracy is generally easier to obtain as well in bolt or single shot
     
  2. Nostromo

    Nostromo

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    I'd go along with the potency. Bolts remain the strongest actions I believe. But AR's are known for their accuracy and even my lowly BAR can match bolt's I own on the range. Could it be you are clinging to an old "wisdom" about bolt actions superiority? Times change and rifles right along with them. Accuracy concerns is no reason to shy away from an auto rifle any more.
     

  3. DecoySlayer

    DecoySlayer

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    My Bushmaster shoots extremely well. It has a 20" barrel and shots touch each other at 100 yards. I have no doubt it will do the needed job.
     
  4. Titan34

    Titan34

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    Agggg. This is making it worse. Lol. Good to hear everyone likes their 459 though.
     
  5. DecoySlayer

    DecoySlayer

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    It's simple, get what you like and don't worry what we all think.

    A good .450 upper will do just as good a job at placing a bullet where you want it placed as a bolt action rifle will. The factory ammo, fired out of a AR style upper, is more than capable if taking down a deer, with one shot, within it's effective range, as anything else used for deer, and better than some.

    Go with the "toys" you are comfortable with. Go with what you can afford. Put good glass on it and you will end up with a system you like and will do the job for you.
     
    jr9912 likes this.
  6. Niles Coyote

    Niles Coyote

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    Having both, the bolt (a home built custom) I like the simplicity the bolt offers as well as the ease of chambering quietly. Yes, if you handload you can really increase the speed... though I question the need. While the cartridge may have more velocity and energy at 500 yards than a 45acp has at the muzzle, the bullet is like a balloon in the wind much past 300. A simply light breeze at the shooter can equal a foot or more of drift at 300, I've seen many days that it has been 3x that from one shot to the next at 400. If you plan to stretch it out past 300 I'd suggest pre-positioning wind flags in your hunting area and lots of realistic field practice.

    What I like about my AR build is a ease of adjusting the stock to fit my daughter and I in a second or less.

    Both are equally accurate. Velocity between the AR with a 16" barrel and the 22" bolt rifle using factory ammo of the same lot number differs by about 150-200 fps.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  7. NonTypicalCPA

    NonTypicalCPA

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  8. spznation

    spznation

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    The AR platform is the only reason 450 Bushmaster exists.

     
  9. DecoySlayer

    DecoySlayer

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    The cartridge was designed for the AR.
     
  10. galeforcerm

    galeforcerm

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    Lawyers are the reason the factory loads are mild.

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
     
  11. LOman

    LOman

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    You are exactly right about the effects of the wind. The ballistic calculators show, with a 10 mph crosswind, 5 inches of drift at 150 yards, 10 inches at 200 yards, and 15 inches at 250 yards with Hornady factory loads in the 450. The big challenge is that the shooter needs to estimate both wind speed and wind direction, do some trig in your head, and aim accordingly. People like to focus on compensating for distance and forget about the wind.
     
  12. Ken

    Ken

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    Absolutely true. Just like the 45-70 was designed for Trapdoor Springfield's. But in both those cases, the factory loads are held to accommodate the rifles they could be loaded in. Without modification, AR rifles will not handle close to the pressure a bolt or single shot will.
    If someone doesn't handload, it is not really a point. But, to see true potential of the cartridge capability, it can only be done in a bolt or single shot.
     
  13. cotote wacker

    cotote wacker

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    Your not even close....

    Because the cartridge was developed for use in a AR-15 pressures must be kept to 40,000 PSI because of bolt head thrust....its also why it a inherently accurate cartridge....
    A 5.56 in a AR-15 pressure is 55,000 PSI smaller cartridge head less bolt head thrust....

    Ruger, Savage, Remington or any other brand of modern bolt action bolt has no problem with 60,000 PSI...your gains in velocity are not that great, recoil will be greater and accuracy usually suffers....brass life is shorter....


    There is no way in the world safely that you can load same bullet to the same velocities in a 450 BM to 460 S&W levels....460 S&W case is .10" longer and operates at 65,000 PSI....

    At the same pressures 460 S&W will be depending on powders and bullet 100-200 fps faster....

    Cutting Edge Bullet 160 gr. Raptor in a 450 Bushmaster AR-15 20" barrel at 39,000 PSI pressure tested....2678 FPS 5 shot average 20 FPS spread....
    Ruger American 450 BM 16" at 59,000 PSI pressure tested....2865 FPS 5 shot average 47 FPS spread...loaded long for maximum case capacity...
    Ruger No. 1 460 S&W 18" barrel at 53,000 PSI pressure tested....3098 FPS 5 shot average 32 FPS spread...

    Cutting Edge Bullet 250 gr. Raptor in 450 Bushmaster AR-15 20" barrel at 38,500 PSI pressure tested...2180 FPS 5 shot average 23 FPS spread....
    Ruger American 450 BM 16" at 58,000 PSI pressure tested....2325 FPS 5 shot average 53 FPS spread....
    Ruger No. 1 460 S&W 18" barrel at 57,000 PSI pressure tested....2457 FPS 5 shot average 40 FPS spread....

    My 450 Bushmaster AR-15 wth 20" barrel will shoot average 50-87 FPS faster with the same load than my Ruger American 450 BM with 16"....
     
  14. Ken

    Ken

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    Actually, the case capacities are virtually identical. The 450 BM is larger at the case head, while shorter. According to Quickload software, if loaded to a max pressure of 60,000 psi for the Bushmaster, and 64,000 for the S&W, the same charge of powder under a 200 grain bullet will be 58,240 PSI in the Bushmaster, and over pressure (64,480 PSI) in the S&W. And, with that load, the S&W would only be 20 fps faster. Both over 2900 fps.
    The parent case of the Bushmaster is the 284, which can be loaded to 62,000 psi, so the case head strength argument can't really be used.
    The limiting factor is the AR platform. 60,000 PSI would shred the action. There are modifications that can be done to allow it to handle higher loads, but not really practical.
    The 45 Raptor is a rimless 460 S&W, designed for AR-10 platforms, which can handle pressures that the AR-15 cannot. The 45 Raptor uses standard 460 S&W loading data and pressures.
     
  15. Zkovach1175

    Zkovach1175

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    I have both, so you should get both !!