centerpin vs spey

Discussion in 'Center Pin Fishing' started by no lead, Apr 9, 2006.

  1. TheSteelheadBum

    TheSteelheadBum Guest

    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    2
    Shotgunner you make a great point about wall thickness playing a huge role in the weight of the blank but, wouldn't you say most spey rods would have a thicker wall due to the fact they have to hold up to so much pressure from slinging a heavy spey line around all day? Especially since spey rods are built to be used with heavy sink tips in a lot of cases? Just a thought but to be honest I do not know for sure like you said it is hard to gauge since the longest 6 weight you can find is 12'6" which is a bummer. I wish Sage would build a 14 foot 6 weight "I would be using that blank for my next float rod if they did:)"

    Riverkeeper a 40 yard cast is not impossible with a center-pin "It is a very long cast but it could be done with a heavy float and a strong wind to your back:) " On a more serious note I agree with you "Riverkeeper" when you say you can cover a lot of water with a spey rod. If you think about it swinging streamers "if done properly" covers just about the same amount of water as a guy drifting wobble-glos with a spinning rod. You also do not have to reel in and cast every time it is just a couple rod movements and the fly is back where it needs to be so in theory you may be covering more water with the spey rod!!! I will say there is no way a spey rod can cover water like a center-pin can but bottom line if you enjoy spey fishing then go out and do it. It is your money, your time and, your life do what makes you happy:)
     
  2. Hex4steel

    Hex4steel

    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Lansing
    Just wanted to add a little input to the comment on the 40 yard cast.......It definately is possible. When I first started using my centerpin rig I would be lucky to be able to get out a 15 yard cast without a bird nest the size of Manhattan Island. Over the last couple months i've learned long casts are not really too difficult depending upon the style of cast used. I am definately not experienced enough yet to throw a 40 yard BC cast but depending on how much weight and the size of your float, as SteelheadBum said, the wallis/charged spool style of casting can allow for some nicely placed 30-40 yard casts. I know silversides can attest for this after a cold march day on the grand wading deep where 40 yard casts were neccessary to reach the section of a large hole where there were quite a few of actively feeding fish.
     

  3. gomer

    gomer

    Messages:
    2,437
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Winchester, Virginia & Rockford, MI (Home)
    I dont think you guys really realize how long a 40 yard cast is. 120 feet is longer than most spey lines on the market.... Besides, why would you need to cast that far to begin with. 120 feet is wider than most michigan streams. I used to be into spey fishing, then i sold my gear to buy a pin. I realized I had fun fishing when I caught fish, not just when I had a flyrod in my hand...
     
  4. shotgunner

    shotgunner

    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    41
    Location:
    N MI. or across 1-2 distinct bridges
    Hello Bum. sorry it took so long to get back with you. there are so many diff rods and actions available it boggles the mind. blanks tailor made for specific casts and casting styles. many of the mid weight and heavier rods are plenty capable of tossing sinktips or full sinkers. some were mapped out specifically for that. most of the light ones though were never intended for dredging. an occasional light tip or poly sure, but more for dry lines than anything. these are the ones that i think would make a good float rod base, especially if you could get them in a little longer length.

    i'm not real sure on the wall thickness comparison between a float blank and a spey but just taking a stab at it, it would seem to me that a generalization would be that a spey blank would have more power in the butt area with the float blank being softer overall. not neccessarily parabolic, but leaning towards that end of the scale. i might be way off here....... i'm certainly no authority, just someone with a passion for fishing rods.

    i was searching for a piece by Dr. Way Yin, designer of the SA XLT long belly line and scott pro staff but couldn't relocate it. this one will work for now. its more to do with durability but illustrates the correlation between wall thickness & dia.

    Below is a response to a similar question about thin walled blanks. The author is "GES" who posts regularly on Dan Blanton's board. He clearly knows a thing or 2 about rod design. It basically states that (1) high modulus materials and (2) thin walled blanks act together to increase susceptibility to damage. I did minor editing for grammar, and added emphases

    ----------------------

    Larger diameter and thinner walls makes for a lighter rod (of a given stiffness and material). If you double the diameter and halve the wall thickness, you end up with the same weight roughly, but the rod will now be 4 times stiffer. For a thin walled rod the stiffness goes as the cube of the diameter and linearly with the wall thickness. If the walls are not thin compared to the diameter, then the stiffness goes as OD^4-ID^4; ie the difference in the fourth power of the outside and inside diameters.

    So if you double the OD, you would have to reduce the wall thickness to 1/8th of what it was to get back to the same stiffness, so the rod would now be 1/4 of the original weight. So as you can see wall thickness gets thin in a hurry for a given size rod, and if you overdo the wall thinning, then the blank will fail due to buckling.

    In principle you could make the rod a foot in diameter, but the walls would be so thin that if you blew on them they would collapse like a cigarette paper. So personally I prefer rods that are a bit smaller in diameter and with thicker walls, even though that makes them heavier for a given line size rod. The established manufacturers have been up and down this road till they are blue in the face, and they are always trying to find a better optimum that the customers like better.

    If you want you 12 weight rod to weigh two ounces, then you use larger diameter thinner wall, and never ever Clouser the tip, or lean it up against anything hard.

    As for impact damage, a typical test laminate of S2 fiberglass (or Kevlar for that matter) is from six to ten times more resistant to impact damage than a carbon one. When you take into account that carbon rods have much less material in them than glass ones, that makes them even more flimsy. Once again the problem is accidental application of forces or loads where they ain't supposed to be.

    Some of those tiny SAGE rods I saw Jamie Lyle with at Tom's shindig, will probably last till the next millenium if you just trout fish with them, but if you rap them on the tree overhead, they weren't designed for that.

    For rods that use the internal plug Ferrule like Scott does, it is very hard to make such a ferrule with a thicker wall blank, because you can't make the ferrule spigot stiff enough to preven getting a knee there. The typical solution is to make them solid, and cram a heck of a lot of fiber in them and use a much higher modulus fiber for the spigot.

    Gomer, are you refering to everyone here or just the spey portion? i had to chuckle when i saw your post because i was thinking of posting the same thing reversed!....LOL... 40 yds is a lonnnnnnnng distance. way out of my reach with either method. if any of you guys in post #17 or #18 could possibly show me one, on dry ground even, not necessarily "wading deep" i'd be indebted to you. i'd even buy drinks for all! no kidding........ anywhere from the M.O. north. not trying to be a disk head, i'd just like to see that cast.

    i fish with any & all types of gear certainly not just fly tackle. most of my fly fishing is done here around home on the upper big M for residents. i've not had much luck swinging flies for steel....... i still enjoy it though. my oldest friends think i'm nuts and i sometimes wonder myself. i do some drift fishing with them and we have plenty of fun. you cant fish alone all the time. the float rod is reserved mainly for cold water work, when its to miserable or there are just so few fish around that a self imposed handicap would be nuts.

    SG

    thought i'd edit in a disclaimer. the short piece below is just for fun and to show what a spey cast can achieve. people have always stretched sports to the extreme, regardless of the practical use. i dont know anything about pin rods & distance but its not hard to see where some more weight would really help out. i always tried to keep my terminal as light as i could, no fun when wind started bossing the cast.



    Records tumble, and 60 yards is history !

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just back from the National Game Fair (held in Ireland each June), and watched Scott Mackenzie set a new world record (a mammoth 60.5 yard Speycast ) in the Open Spey competition.
    Conditions were calm with a slight cross-wind.
    This cast was achieved in the qualifying rounds of the competition, the final being tomorrow.
    My guess is this man isn`t finished yet, and I can see him beat his new record soon, maybe very soon.
    Scott was using a new Daiwa 18` rod, and his usual 9/10 XLT line.
    What a cast, and what a gentleman.
    Many congratulations Scott !
     
  5. Northlander

    Northlander Guest

    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0

    Making a 40 yard cast is merely not needed. Besides, I want to see you float your strike indicator up to a 80+ yards or more on a extremely large river run (if needed). I would rather use the current to my advantage as far as my line slowy pulling off the reel, keeping my line tight, thus already preparing me to setting the hook.

    I've watched many individuals throw them spey rods around time & time again. Nothing to this day still convinces me to ever use one. Common sense tells me when your whipping that oversized fly rod stick over the hole, with that noisy line hitting the water (especially during extreme clear water), it seems to me that it would scare the fish away.

    I prefer to present my offering in a more realistic way. Spey fishing to me is no where near realistic. Besides, I'm not one for the fashion for fishing band wagon.
     
  6. steelhead1621

    steelhead1621

    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    spey fishing isnt really that tiring on your arms at all. i think its just a preference on whether you like to flyfish or spin fish. spey fishing takes a little more patience because you obviously dont have any scented baits like spinning stuff but when a big old lake brown or steelhead smacks your streamer it is very rewarding.
     
  7. TheSteelheadBum

    TheSteelheadBum Guest

    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    2
    Shotgunner & Gomer,

    I at least do realize how long 40 yards is and with a 14 gram float with the proper weighting for the float could "sidecast" 40 yards if not I would be
    very close. As with a spey rod casting over head it is not that hard to cast a entire spey line "with a fast action spey rod" Although there is absolutely no need for it and you could not mend the line at that distance the cast is possible. Shotgunner you really willing to buy the drinks? Could be a very expensive evening lol.
     
  8. TheSteelheadBum

    TheSteelheadBum Guest

    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    2
    Shotgunner that is a lot of very interesting info. I would have to agree with you for the most part a more traditional action "slower action" would be the ideal float rod action in most cases. A faster action would be better out west where heavier leaders are used and you need more muscle to combat larger fish and heavier flows. There are just so many variables in the whole scenario it is almost impossible to completely figure it out. I just wish they would make high end spey rods in a traditional action in the 6-7 weight range that are at least 14 foot long to have a true comparison:) . When they do I will be purchasing the blank for a custom rod....
     
  9. shotgunner

    shotgunner

    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    41
    Location:
    N MI. or across 1-2 distinct bridges
    darn it, i somehow knew things were going to go 'metric' @ some point... how much weight in good ol'e std american terms would it take to properly weight a 14 gram float?

    i don't doubt at all that the cast could be made. i just dont think many out there are capable. again i could easily be wrong. probably should have never commented on it, Gomer just lit me up a little. if i dont know something for sure i'll either make it clear in the post or just not post at all.

    that bit at the end of my post about the 60+ yd cast was a spey cast, not an over head, complete with PVC running line. no light mono rigged up shooting head style there.

    this thread has gone seriously off topic......... never meant to promote some sort of rivalry. i fish whatever i feel like for the day, week, or season. its all good....

    SG
     
  10. TheSteelheadBum

    TheSteelheadBum Guest

    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    2
    14 grams is a half ounce. It is probably more than you would need to make the cast. No rivalry here:) . Maybe we could set up a jousting match. Spey Rods vs. Float Rods winner takes the trophy for ultimate way to fish award:lol: 60+ yards!!! That is a long spey cast. I definitely could not do that!!! So no free drinks? LOL j/k.....
     
  11. shotgunner

    shotgunner

    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    41
    Location:
    N MI. or across 1-2 distinct bridges
    bum, sent p.m. re the free drinks ;)
     
  12. Treven

    Treven Banned

    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    344
    Location:
    Northville
    Shotgunner,

    I know 40 yd casts w/ a CP are not out of the question, because I have seen my buddy cast from the sand bar straight across to the Wellston side above the coffer at Tippy and hit the first run from the bank. There was no one over there fishing obviously and no wind from his back, but he was using an AER Cedar rod he tied himself (spey conv.) and a 20g Zeppler. If he used braid, he could have put it on the bank easily! I'm pretty sure I can chuck'em about 30 yds with my St. Croix Avid, maybe more. I'm going to go to the football field sometime and see for sure!

    Later guys,

    Trev
     
  13. Speyday

    Speyday

    Messages:
    442
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Bolingbrook, IL....kinda by Joliet
    40 yards? No problem. Covering water? My friend.........unless youve seen it, I can understand where you may be coming from. BUT.....once that float starts going downstream, your only limitations in covering water are 1. running it all the way down around a bend in the river, or 2. Losing sight of the float because its so far away. I too, have stood on the sandbar, and although i wasn't a good caster, was easily putting mine 3/4 a way to the wellston side. The pinner I met that day was actually fishing the inside seam of it! No kidding.

    Here's some proportion/perspective. At Berrien springs, I can and have regularly stood right next to the fish ladder, cast straight across and practically tap the buoy, then let my rig go all the way downstream to past where the island starts. Thats covering water. Thats what you can do when you know how to really cast a pin. Don't get me wrong.....Speys do it to, but they do it by scribing an arc, rather than running a straight path/lane from the "splash down" point.

    Disclaimer: I wouldn't dare do that type of casting/drifting in a crowd at B.S.; but in winter....................
     
  14. shotgunner

    shotgunner

    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    41
    Location:
    N MI. or across 1-2 distinct bridges
    Treven, i never said i thought it was out of the question. i just dont think it would be that common.

    i never doubted it could be done..... what i doubt is that the majority out there are going to accomplish it. its starting to sound as though a 40 yard pin cast may be alot more common than a 40 yard spey cast though. i'm not the fella who tossed the "40 yard" figure into the fray either.

    i know exactly what 40 yds looks like, thats why the figure carries so much weight with me. years of shooting sports & hunting with a vintage recurve taught me that. i suppose i did kinda shoot my mouth off in post #19 but the drinks offer still stands to the three people it originally covered. i just thought there was quite a casual unconcerned air involved for that amount of distance, especially when deep wading. there is a world of diff in 30 and 40 yds. seems like you can get to a certain point without much trouble but then sweat and swear and maybe bleed for what little you can gain from there.

    i'd be super impressed to see it done by anyone, though it would have to limeted to the 14 grm float setup. 1/2 oz is a figure i'm familier with and more than i've ever ran drift fishing other than a couple times with xtreme high water combined with wind. you can have the weight of the float for free though ... ;)...LOL..

    gladly pack a cooler for casters & spectators alike along with my 100'...err..150' tape.

    again, not trying to offend or tic anyone off. i do know what 40 yds is and it would be a cast to see!

    thanks...... SG
     
  15. Treven

    Treven Banned

    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    344
    Location:
    Northville
    Got ya dude, I'm not ticked off or anything, just sharing my little wealth of knowledge I've aquired;)

    Have a good one!,

    Trev