Are all bullet companies even testing their bullets with real loads?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Bobby072, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. Bobby072

    Bobby072

    Messages:
    837
    Likes Received:
    218
    I just got a batch of new copper bullets to try and was sent reloading info on them.

    H110/w296 and Lil gun were not to be found on the list. I thought it was strange because every bullet, manual etc has those two common 450BM reloading powders. Yet this did not.

    I figured out why. There is a feature in the computer program "Quickload" where you can set a paramter and it will show all the powders that meet it. Ie. Say your goal is 2200fps, it will list all the powders that can do that.

    This list used 35,000 PSI as max pressure + the powder had to fill the case by 90 percent or more.
    Well that leaves off lil gun and H100 right there. They both will have more than 35k psi at 90 percent case fill. Its a fun program to play with but the pressure numbers are off by real world testing from places from Hodgedons.

    So it seems rather than actually test their ammo with common powders they opted to let the computer program spit out a bunch of powders for a user to start with vs actually using a pressure device to test the real world pressure.

    I can see how its cost cutting but would rather rely on real world data not the program.

    Also means anyone using H110 or Lil Gun is loading too hot or leaving too much empty space in the case (under 90 percent)

    Here is the example: They sent for reloading.

    Cartridge : .450 Bushmaster
    Bullet : .451, 250, CutEdge-HG Maximus
    Useable Case Capaci: 44.963 grain H2O = 2.919 cm³
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.240 inch = 56.90 mm
    Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

    Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
    Matching Maximum Pressure: 35265 psi, or 243 MPa
    or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %
    These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
    C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
    loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
    that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
    and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
    USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

    103 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
    Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
    % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
    --------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Vihtavuori N125 *C 104.0 40.1 2.60 2126 94.8 35265 3479 1.151 ! Near Maximum !

    ReloadSwiss RS 36 99.8 40.2 2.61 2098 90.9 35265 3444 1.159 ! Near Maximum !

    Vihtavuori N110 *C 94.5 33.2 2.15 2088 99.8 35265 3080 1.170 ! Near Maximum !

    Hodgdon H4227 99.3 37.7 2.44 2079 92.3 35265 3327 1.160 ! Near Maximum !

    Alliant Reloder-7 105.0 42.1 2.73 2072 87.6 33905 3463 1.186 ! Near Maximum !

    ReloadSwiss RS 30 101.2 36.9 2.39 2152 98.9 35265 3452 1.139 ! Near Maximum !

    IMR 4227 97.4 37.0 2.39 2052 91.1 35265 3215 1.169 ! Near Maximum !

    Accurate 1680 95.7 41.4 2.68 2045 83.3 35265 3306 1.176 ! Near Maximum !

    Accurate 2200 104.8 44.1 2.86 2025 77.7 35265 3277 1.181 ! Near Maximum !

    Vihtavuori N120 *C 105.0 39.7 2.57 2016 92.2 30043 3320 1.231
    Hodgdon H4198 104.2 40.6 2.63 2003 80.8 35265 3102 1.186 ! Near Maximum !

    IMR 4198 105.0 39.0 2.53 1984 85.3 31191 3205 1.227
    Hodgdon H335 105.0 47.5 3.08 1954 73.9 30950 3311 1.245
    Alliant Reloder-10x *C 105.0 41.1 2.66 1917 80.5 25607 3304 1.313

    Impressive looking list but no H110 or Lil gun.
    ===========================================================

    Now here is the Hodgedon max load for AR load data. Notice its over 38,500. Either Quick load is off on pressures or Hodgedon is. Both cant be right. I would side with real world testing from the Hodgedon.

    [​IMG]

    I hope this is not a new trend where computer simulation is replacing actual testing. I know Barnes tests their bullets and I hope do no send you a computer simulated load sheet that has never been tested.

    I'm not trashing Quick load, I think its a great tool but it has its limitations. The information I got was not tweeked either I got the same results from my quickload that I was sent.

    Do companies still pressure test their load data?
     
    shaffe48b likes this.
  2. Ken

    Ken

    Messages:
    3,067
    Likes Received:
    1,345
    Location:
    In the woods
    In that situation, the data they sent it worth the paper it is written on, and that's about it.

    Obviously those two powders are widely used in the 450. Start at starting loads and work up. Just like if they didn't send any info.
     
    sureshot006 likes this.

  3. Tilden Hunter

    Tilden Hunter

    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    3,219
    Location:
    Negaunee, MI
    The 90% minimum is going to cut out many loads that might work well. IMR4895 & H4895 in a .30-'06 wouldn't make that cut, but are generally accurate and useful in that cartridge.
     
    U.P.Grouse Chaser and 6thMichCav like this.
  4. Bobby072

    Bobby072

    Messages:
    837
    Likes Received:
    218
    Might have squib loads in that list too. Quick load can be 10,000 PSI off.
    I guess the point is that cutting edge is giving out computerized guesses for load data and not doing real testing. Notice there is no starting loads. They never tested any of these powders. Its a click the mouse cut n paste and send to customer.
     
  5. shaffe48b

    shaffe48b

    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes Received:
    577
    Location:
    Ann Arbor/Rose City
    I really don't completely follow what your eveidence is that they just provided you quickload data. Is it that the velocity and charge readings are the exact same as they have on the card? Or is it just that it spit you the same powders? Who is the manufacturer, big or small?

    They do take shortcuts at times. The load data on federal's site for 180 grain tbt out of a .308 was plagiarized from speer trophy bonded bear claw data. But not for the 165 grain.
     
  6. Bobby072

    Bobby072

    Messages:
    837
    Likes Received:
    218
    Lets say you made 450BM bullets.

    1. You could go out and shoot them with various loads like Bear Creek, Berger etc. Test the pressures and make a starting and max load based on real data. Then when people ask for suggested loads you can say 'We tested these in the lab and found this range of safe loads"

    Or

    2. You could just make bullets and never shoot any of them or test them. Then you could use quickload for loads. (its a computer program) and trust it. People that buy your new bullet may ask you for load data. Instead of using real world testing you load up quick load (cross fingers) and let it spit out some untested loads. Give that to the buyer and say good luck!

    Quickload is not very accurate on pressures so loads give out by it should not be trusted as much as actual load data taken from shooting with a chamber pressure gauge.
     
    shaffe48b likes this.
  7. shaffe48b

    shaffe48b

    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes Received:
    577
    Location:
    Ann Arbor/Rose City
    I understand the incentives. I'm just not sure these people are actually doing that. Major bullet manufacuterers are likely doing their own testing.

    If you want load data for an all copper bullet I would just use barnes. I personally use the $8 one cartridge books and survey what everyone says like 20 different sources. In the end, I shoot and get something different! Maybe they should just use a dang computer program!
     
  8. Bobby072

    Bobby072

    Messages:
    837
    Likes Received:
    218
    They are doing just that. I can make up any list I want with my quick load, even on a hypothetical bullet.

    Barnes actually tests there loads. Sending out quick load data is worse than using Barnes data. But what if they all did that?
     
  9. AlR

    AlR

    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    82
    My guess would be if they are publishing load data, that they had it pressure tested just for liability reasons.
     
  10. Ken

    Ken

    Messages:
    3,067
    Likes Received:
    1,345
    Location:
    In the woods
    Some of the small bullet companies don't send data at all.
    I bought some of the Maker TREX bullets for the 350 Legend. Solid copper, with tip.
    They sent no data. Online it showed one powder and a 3 grain range. No velocity or pressure.
    But, it was no problem working up a load.
    By the way, those bullets are lasers. Ruger American was stacking them at 100 yards.
     
  11. cotote wacker

    cotote wacker

    Messages:
    518
    Likes Received:
    429
    At least CEB will take the time to give you a starting point....if you don't trust there Quickload data buy your own program...its not just a click of the mouse to get all the perimeters...
    Big name companies have been doing load development for decades and have a base line for all the common calibers....as a new caliber comes along it not that hard to do work on one or a couple...
    Small companies would go broke just doing load development on the cartridges available today and more every year...

    What I have done when loading copper or brass bullets is find data for a cup-core bullet that weighs the same...go with the start load and work up....great part you can get a load that will shoot the same as the copper or brass bullets....practice and plink with the cheeper cup-core shoot a couple copper or brass to check before your hunt...
     
  12. Bobby072

    Bobby072

    Messages:
    837
    Likes Received:
    218
    Which bullets? The 450BM or Trex 350 legend?
     
  13. Bobby072

    Bobby072

    Messages:
    837
    Likes Received:
    218
    I do have my own quickload and use it often. Just saying I trust real world testing with a pressure gauge over Quckload, the pressures are not accurate with established loads in many areas.
    If I one click "apply and exit" it will list all the powders for the search parameters.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Bobby072

    Bobby072

    Messages:
    837
    Likes Received:
    218