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A new dog question.

Discussion in 'Waterfowl hunting dogs' started by AaronJohn, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Hunters Edge

    Hunters Edge

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    They were not bred for upland hunting but retrieving. Thus they are retrievers, yes they can hunt upland but not the same distance or time afield as a shorthair.
    GSP'S were bred for BOTH. Unfortunately some have more field trial in them do to breeding. Not so much bad, if it does not remove what was bred in the first place. Again the breed was bred for not only upland and waterfowl, but protection, keeping varmints from getting farm animals, along with tracking big game.
    If you do not think they are big bones or lacking, speed and endurance just look at all other hunting breeds. You will see none of them running skijoring, and winning.
    They are brutes, smart and close members of the family.
     
  2. goose schatt

    goose schatt

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    i know there are shorthairs that can endure the cold, but I believe the ones that are the hardiest are tough because of their high prey drive not because their physique is ideal for cold conditions late season. I'm sure the dense coated have some advantage over the thin coated. I would never judge a breed by a dog. I hunt with guys that are gsp guys 100% and have seen them in all conditions. 2 of the dogs are versatile champs. I'm just basing my opinion on personal experience with my dogs and friends dogs.
     

  3. Hunters Edge

    Hunters Edge

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    I appreciate that, I surely do. I am also giving my 2 cents on my personal experience as well. Along with the knowledge I have on the both breeds.

    Lab's were bred to retrieve, this is how they originated or came about.
    GSP'S were bred as a continental breed or do all. In Germany with similar if not colder temps than ours. Read about the first ones coming to the US. It is not just prey drive that allows them to handle the cold.
    Unfortunately Americans bred pointers into the breed for more run. Which in a way is good as long as not to much which takes away from their initial diversity. Coat and thick skin, thus the reason for looking for the right breeder or genetics is crucial.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  4. Greenkingsalmon

    Greenkingsalmon

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  5. Retiredducker

    Retiredducker

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    Unless thinking grouse and woodcock there isn’t much for an upland dog to hunt here anymore , unless travel or preserve


    Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app
     
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  6. Hunters Edge

    Hunters Edge

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    Yep few pheasants a few sharptail. The ruffed grouse is often referred to as king. Add to that Michigan harvests more woodcock than any other state in the USA. Also with millions of acres including state, federal and private land enlisted in the comercial forest act that is open to hunting, I would think many non residents flock to Michigan for all of the above reasons.

    With waterfowl having 3 openers and opportunities in Michigan. Upland hunting for grouse and woodcock in zone 1 and 2 are bonus hunts during mid day, and northern edge of zone 3.
     
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  7. adam bomb

    adam bomb

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    I’m with the 50-60# class on labs. They’re nice in the house, boat, truck, don’t require a monstrous crate, eat less food etc etc....but I will say not all big dogs are obese either. My buddy Tom just put his 13 year old 110# male down due to an inoperable melanoma deep in the roof of his mouth. This dog was a beast and at 13 could still jump off the pontoon seat, over the rail into Lake Mitchell to get a dummy and climb back up the ladder all afternoon long. He was an incredible dog that I will miss hunting with.
    ImageUploadedByOhub Campfire1515730469.395349.jpg
     
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  8. Flatt Soggy

    Flatt Soggy

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    Pointing lab? Steady to release? GSP all the way. Trained to hold hold point and mark until release, and blind retrieve will be your all round gun dog and family dog. Check out NAVHDA. Had 2 down to 1 now.


    Sent from my iPhone using Michigan Sportsman mobile app
     
  9. kappa8

    kappa8

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    I'm in Gene Hill's camp with the pointing lab thing: don't bother with a dog who doesn't know what it wants to be. Yes, they are 'capable' of pointing, but that's not what they were created for. (That oughta start some discussions ;-p )

    Instead of GSP, look at GWP (german wirehair pointer). They are versatile breed and can to it all, better than GSPs (that oughta some more side conversations!). Just beware the whole GWP-vs-DD (drahthaar) debate.
     
  10. TheHighLIfe

    TheHighLIfe

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    interesting read
    people have different perspectives

    i have 2 to add
    if my experiences and beliefs differ from yours, please do not attack me, please respect my right to form my beliefs from my different experiences

    1. 'vocal in the blind' dogs need to left at home
    you may be able to put up with it because of your love for your pet, but you are ruining the hunt for everyone within earshot, who are saying 'someone needs to shoot that dog'

    2. 'pointers' are definitely better for pheasants (anyone seen one lately? - haha) and quail in the field than labs, since those birds will hunker down when feeling trapped. labs will run and flush birds farther ahead = longer shots
    the only reason i would ever hunt grouse with a pointer is to finally experience my first ever grouse flush over a pointer, after a handful of hunting days
    i have hunted grouse with pointers chosen by the head of a presitgious kennel. all i have experienced is 'false points' and 'runaway points' (grouse will occasionally hunker down, but prefer to elude ensuing danger by walking away). the trainer would restrain my lab to allow me my first ever pointer-grouse flush - always to no avail. we would continue hunting and my lab would trace and flush the 'runaway points' for us shortly thereafter
    we still recall the day 9 of us (a story within itself) were hunting with 2 labs and 'our best pointer', according to the trainer. the labs were flushing birds, the pointer was giving us false and runaway points. we all gathered along the two track for a rest break, and the pointer wandered off and went on point. the trainer 'guaranteed' a bird was there, told me to go get my first grouse flush from a pointer, with an audience of 8 guys. i crept up to the point. nothing. then i noticed a huge bumblebee sitting on a flower right in front of the pointer's nose. the laughter could be heard for miles, we still bring up the memory 30 years later
    that has been my experience with pointers and grouse
    i am certain others have experienced the opposite
    i hope someday to finally witness a grouse flush from a point
    in the meantime, i will be flushing grouse with my lab (my record is 76 flushes in a day, killing my limit of 6 on 6 consecutive shots in ontario - my son's record is 5 on 5 consecutive shots, including consecutive doubles)
     
  11. waterfowlhunter83

    waterfowlhunter83

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    :rolleyes: Oh boy...I don't think you really want to go into that debate:D
     
  12. Hunters Edge

    Hunters Edge

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    As a respectful response. Just for the record far many vocal dogs I have heard while waterfowling have been retrievers. Not sure but it may be do to HRC and AKC retrieving test many dogs during testing are not penalized for vocalization. On the contrary NAVHDA for versatile breeds ARE penalized for vocalization in steady by blind sequence. Also every one I knew in NAVHDA hunted their dogs on upland and waterfowl while training and testing. The same can not be said for those running retrievers in HRC and AKC and would wait tell after the dog finished.
    So vocalization can be present in GSP's but it is rare and less apparent then in retrieves. Main reason versatile breeds or continental breeds were used to hunt or poach on Lord's,Kings etc land their vocalization could get them hung. I do understand the upsetting noise when you've done your research found were the birds were and wanted to be. Then arrive early before day light, get set up, have waited all year. It's opening day and later group of hunters arrive on either side of you and once shooting starts you witness ducks flailing and you hear barks and whining. I understand your frustrations.

    On your second, hunted many different breeds and would not give a hoot for labs or any flushing breed in the woods for grouse. Done that do not want any part of it again.

    I would think if you left the retriever home, you would not have those birds being as spooked and running off of points. Besides you do not need a retriever with GSP'S (they retrieve). Also you do not hunt grouse with pointers like you would do with flushers. Instead when the dog goes on point you do not walk up to it, you circle around come toward the dogs nose pinching the bird between the dog and the hunter/handler. Also certain conditions will cause grouse to run but have found beepers with a hawk scream on points solve that issue.

    Not sure about your pheasants up there, but down here they are runners. Dogs may have to work that bird an 1/8 to 1/4 mile at times and 50 to100 yards is not uncommon.

    I will say that if I could not buy a GSP, my second choice may be a lab. After hunting over so many breeds though my first choice hands down is the GSP. Not dishing other breeds just and feel privileged and blessed to have had the opportunity to hunt over some phenomenal dogs in my time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  13. Hunters Edge

    Hunters Edge

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    Sorry to hear of your friends loss. It is never easy, they never live long enough. Kind of a reminder to enjoy every minute we can with them. Again so sorry to hear of his loss, my condolences to him and his family.
     
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  14. waterfowlhunter83

    waterfowlhunter83

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    So what about a dog that is "sight loud" when he is chasing down a cripple (which is by design and encouraged in dogs bred in the German system)? Does that fall under "your" requirement as a reason to leave a dog at home?
     
  15. N M Mechanical

    N M Mechanical Premium Member

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    Wow
    First Hrc does fail dogs for being vocal, Akc does not but when was the last time you have seen a master level dog barking or just being loud? Very rare because that is a training issue. And if you are playing at that level you “usually” nipped that out right away.
    Second it is facts that the “NAVHDA” breeds do not have the eye sight like a lab so marking is not as good. Take the BEST marking GSP and it could not hold a candle to the “Best” retrievers in the game. There is a reason why there is only 7 HRCH gsps. And like wise I am not going to enter a lab( and can not) in Ammes for the national open.
    But if you want too use a leatherman too fix every thing in your house or car great. It will get done did it for years I just prefer the exact tool for the job.
     
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