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UP hunting.. horrible or just me?

31K views 245 replies 67 participants last post by  UP Hunter 
#1 ·
Sitting in my blind at the moment. This will be day four of dark to dark hunting.

Is the hunting this year in the UP has bad as I believe it to be or is it just me? This is unbelievable they're not seeing any deer. I understand that you have to hunt to get it back up here but I'm not even seeing activity anymore.

I just wonder if the youth hunt is really taking mature bucks out in an area that doesn't necessarily support buck maturity given all the natural enemies such as the wolf, coyote and winters...

I'm just getting a sore ass and nothing more.

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#204 ·
There a lot of campers parked along the forest service roads where there has never been camps before. Established camps had trucks parked around them. Trucks have been parked where I have never seen before all fall.

Public land usage is up a least in Mackinac and Chippewa county where I travel.

I was totaling my Deer Camp Survey sightings while watching deer all afternoon. So far this season 156 sightings, 15 buck sightings and doe to fawn ratio greater than 1:1 in favor of fawns. All categories are higher than the last few years.
 
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#205 ·
Wanted to add a comment about Beech in the Upper Peninsula: Beech only grows in the eastern 2/3 or so of the U.P. and thus has no relevancy to considering habitat in the western 1/3. The species is ever so slowly migrating its way across.

I collect a lot of tree seed and though I have always had a standing order for 50# of Beech seed, I have never filled it. That is not due to the mortality from Beech Bark Disease, which can vary from site to site (seems less lethal in NW Lower Peninsula). But rather due to the way that Beech doesn't even flower at all each and every year (something I pay attention to as I have been asked to collect Beech pollen for allergy labs in the past). Michigan is a northern range limit for the species, and as a woody plant approaches it's range limit, it is less often successful at setting seed than it is in the core of it's natural range. In the NW Lower, I have only ever seen good Beech crops about one year in three in my life, maybe one year in four. That is enough to perpetuate the species. Wildlife do consume Beech nuts as an excellent hard mast food source, but there are several others and I believe Oak is far more significant to hard mast levels on the landscape in Michigan.


re: Winter Habitat Quality & Size in U.P. - I have been perplexed by reading about this and the new working group. Is there something specific that is missing? The U.P. is the only place I have ever seen where young conifer thermal cover is increasing, naturally. Which I would trace to low Deer #s. You won't often see waist to head high Hemlock in the Lower Peninsula and outside of a high lime area, you will hardly ever see White Cedar regen at all. Both of those are on the increase in the U.P. from what I see. The slow return of "Canada Yew" / "Ground Hemlock" / "Taxus canadensis" to many areas of the U.P. is also an obvious sign of the now lower browse pressure. That species is extremely rare in the Lower Peninsula.

If Winter Habitat is some sort of bottleneck to Deer population #s, I would like to learn what specific parts of that idea are a problem. I have heard thoughts in the U.P. that winter habitat concentration just makes things too easy for Deer predators and that has led some to stop feeding Deer in winter as a result.



This year I have been wondering about Deer in the U.P. in a specific way - did the October snows trigger any early migration, placing Deer in their winter areas a bit early this year?
 
#206 ·
Wanted to add a comment about Beech in the Upper Peninsula: Beech only grows in the eastern 2/3 or so of the U.P. and thus has no relevancy to considering habitat in the western 1/3. The species is ever so slowly migrating its way across.

I collect a lot of tree seed and though I have always had a standing order for 50# of Beech seed, I have never filled it. That is not due to the mortality from Beech Bark Disease, which can vary from site to site (seems less lethal in NW Lower Peninsula). But rather due to the way that Beech doesn't even flower at all each and every year (something I pay attention to as I have been asked to collect Beech pollen for allergy labs in the past). Michigan is a northern range limit for the species, and as a woody plant approaches it's range limit, it is less often successful at setting seed than it is in the core of it's natural range. In the NW Lower, I have only ever seen good Beech crops about one year in three in my life, maybe one year in four. That is enough to perpetuate the species. Wildlife do consume Beech nuts as an excellent hard mast food source, but there are several others and I believe Oak is far more significant to hard mast levels on the landscape in Michigan.


re: Winter Habitat Quality & Size in U.P. - I have been perplexed by reading about this and the new working group. Is there something specific that is missing? The U.P. is the only place I have ever seen where young conifer thermal cover is increasing, naturally. Which I would trace to low Deer #s. You won't often see waist to head high Hemlock in the Lower Peninsula and outside of a high lime area, you will hardly ever see White Cedar regen at all. Both of those are on the increase in the U.P. from what I see. The slow return of "Canada Yew" / "Ground Hemlock" / "Taxus canadensis" to many areas of the U.P. is also an obvious sign of the now lower browse pressure. That species is extremely rare in the Lower Peninsula.

If Winter Habitat is some sort of bottleneck to Deer population #s, I would like to learn what specific parts of that idea are a problem. I have heard thoughts in the U.P. that winter habitat concentration just makes things too easy for Deer predators and that has led some to stop feeding Deer in winter as a result.



This year I have been wondering about Deer in the U.P. in a specific way - did the October snows trigger any early migration, placing Deer in their winter areas a bit early this year?
The thermal cover I'm familiar with is older cedar.
Several to a foot size in trunk diameters at our waist height type stuff.
In tracts large enough to break high winds quite a bit , and umbrella the snow a bit.
Alas , no browse involved.

Ideally , woody browse would be prolific at the edges. More ideally , quality browse.
It does not seem to take many deer many years to reduce browse capacity of a revisited yarding area. Subject to what's on it's perimeter of course.

The area I found winter kills (years ago in the Midish- Northern lower) had a browse line where deer had been able to leave the thermal cover. A browse line on younger cedars ,out of reach of fawns. And maybe some yearlings. And cedar may not be the best browse.
In my opinion it's not even midgrade when it is the entire browse availability.
 
#209 · (Edited)
Managing the deer habitat at this point in many places in the UP is dead. With logging operations depleting all the beech and big woods these deer lived and fed on for years, it's never going to return. They've planted australian pines to replace there original resource that provides no food only maybe some bedding and thermal cover areas. Food sources have been destroyed up there annually from 1997 by logging operations. Since 1997, I haven't killed many respectable bucks. Prior to that, many of us at camp could expect a wall hanger annually. Loggers IMO are the reason the big bucks disappeared in my area. I could set up on Beech ridges and kill big bucks fairly regularly. With these beech trees removed, the bucks move on to food sources that provide nutrition. Unless agriculture is close by, the nutrition provided in today's UP woods isn't going to sustain quality bucks. At least not where I hunt.
These cuttings are occurring due to a disease that is projected to kill ALL the beech trees in those beech/maple highlands in the UP Forestry Division in concert with USFS and MSU Forestry Dept. is researching disease resistant beech strains for broad scale replanting. This has been repeatedly communicated to the Public for nearly a decade. Why is it more rational to leave the trees to die, as well as serve as habitat for pathogen spread? With regard to forest practices, yes, whole tree harvest does have a marked impact of wildlife, yet, the other side of that coin was the marked beneficial impacts of the paper pulp industry's cuttings on deer habitat to lead to the population boom that occurred in UP deer populations in the 1980s through the late 1990s.

Personally, from 38 years of living and hunting in the central and western UP, I attribute much of the downturn in this years deer kill to a markedly erratic weather interval that overlaid much of the rut. We went from a slowly descending cool fall to instant winter and then back to 50 and near 70F weather for a week, pretty warm for deer with full winter coats ready for ambient temperatures down in the 20s to single digits. Deer became nocturnal during the thaw, with some dispersal toward winter yards in areas that experienced high snow depths.

I would echo Forest Meister's Teddy Roosevelt quote with one from Jerry Garcia; "Ya ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know!"
 
#212 ·
While I understand the need to remove the scale or bark diseased trees, I do not understand the need to remove all based on it's likely hood of it appearing. Again, if it's an issue, address it. The eastern UP and northern LP were the areas hard hot with this disease. Alger county had some amd originally back in 2000 was a core area. They removed most of that problem with few trees having it remaining. They continued to remove those with removing the remaining healthy trees as well. It's not only the beech that are being wiped out. These areas are being clear cut and left like moonscapes. No cover or food for deer/bear. I believe this location in my core hunting area is the cause of the deer/bear moving out. I'm no wildlife biologist but speaking to a couple very knowledgeable biologists, they conclude the same. Wiping out huge wooded areas has huge impacts on local populations and they do leave these areas finding better habitat. Maybe this can't be helped and maybe it's not the intent of the project but it is the end result.
 
#213 ·
We do have some Beech on our property in Dickinson County, which I believe is probably close to the end of its range. Every one of our beech trees have bear claw marks on them so I know bears like the nuts which grow only every few years. Hoping the beech bark disease doesn't make it this far west.

We only had 1 lonely Red Oak on our property when we purchased it but I have been planting oaks for years and I am finally getting some acorn production on them. Unfortunately, bears are climbing my young oaks and breaking branches down so they can eat the acorns on the ground.
 
#214 ·
Many times headed to a stand during deer season, I've bumped bears feeding under beech trees. It's a favorite food of bears also. Like I said, not much can be done with the eradicating of beech. I've voiced this clear cut issue on state lands numerous times and many of the clear cuts are happening in Plum Creek or other private lands so that's not even worth questioning. Having a camp close to my hunting grounds makes it tough to want to travel too far to hunt being quads are used to travel to parking locations for hunting. I travel around 4-5 miles on quad to my area as it is. Think I'd scout another hunting location and put a new camp in that location if I had to travel too far by quad.
 
#216 ·
My boys(3) and I last hunt for the UP rifle season, no deer sightings yesterday or today so far , have most of the bucks on cam still but all at night except a small spike. Still holding some hope for one of them to connect tonight. Not the best for us up here this season
 
#217 ·
Smoke a pack a day, save the Up deer heard.
We have a winner!

If I were the Grand Pupa of Bunny Hugger Inc. I would grab that post and others like it and present them to the most sympathetic federal judge my very well paid attorneys could find. The sole purpose of same would be to provide corroborating evidence that even though the northern Great Lake States individual management plans may be well meaning, wolf populations are still at risk of being decimated if they are no longer accorded federal protected.

IMO, the best course of action at this time is to sit quietly in the blind until this thing shakes out and wolf management officially gets transferred to the states, in January I believe, so as not to unwittingly provide ammo to the rabid opposition. FM
 
#222 ·
But what about the silent ones?
 
#225 ·
Neither Plum Creek nor Weyerhaeuser own those lands any more. I would also strongly doubt Kimberly-Clark owns much, if any, land at all. Plum Creek sold it all to Weyerhaeuser who in turn sold it all to a small TIMO (Timber Investment Management Organization) out of Vermont - Lyme Timber - still a bit less than a year ago.

https://www.lymetimber.com/portfolio/lyme-great-lakes-timberlands/

What their policies are on their CFR holdings I wouldn’t know. But when land changes hands, the past is often irrelevant.


At least the Red Oak and Northern/Upland Pin Oak had an OK crop this year in some places. I doubt that the fairly rare UP Bur Oak did though, but possibly.
 
#226 ·
Neither Plum Creek nor Weyerhaeuser own those lands any more. I would also strongly doubt Kimberly-Clark owns much, if any, land at all. Plum Creek sold it all to Weyerhaeuser who in turn sold it all to a small TIMO (Timber Investment Management Organization) out of Vermont - Lyme Timber - still a bit less than a year ago.

https://www.lymetimber.com/portfolio/lyme-great-lakes-timberlands/

What their policies are on their CFR holdings I wouldn’t know. But when land changes hands, the past is often irrelevant.


At least the Red Oak and Northern/Upland Pin Oak had an OK crop this year in some places. I doubt that the fairly rare UP Bur Oak did though, but possibly.
Thank you for that update. It's hard to keep track of who owns what public land up there annually. I knew Weyerhaeuser bought out Plum Creek but haven't heard a transaction since that one. Every so often I'll run into a regular C/O while I'm hunting. His name I'll not disclose but he's one of the best wildlife law officers I've ever dealt with. He typically keeps us up to date on changes. Haven't run into him in 3-4 years up there. At some point I'd think the logging would slow down as they've pretty much dessimated all the big woods that property has to offer
 
#227 ·
Small logging operation started this weekend in my sons spot it was a bummer but it happens, reflecting on my 14 days I’ve spent in the UP this season I had a big lack of does in my area compared to years past and the sign showed it, had few bucks around however the deer sightings were single digits which is bad looks like I need to roam further away next year to find more sign. Like many I’ve hunted this particular spot since 2005 but have taken a buck 50% (2.5yr or older) of the 15yrs and passed some smaller ones. I think once the rifle guys showed up and all the baiting started it sent the deer to night feeding least around us. I told myself to not bait this season because I’ve seen every year how the nice bucks either disappear or only at night on cam, but I caved in hopes of keeping a hot doe around. Next year it’s no bait for me , will see how that pans out up there can’t be any worse than this season. Until next season
 
#229 ·
The recipe for restricted deer movement: abundant food sources and mild temps. combined with high winds. Your assessment is pretty accurate. Over the years I have come to view a mature buck having the mental abilities of a dog. They react very well to the stark changes of the territory they travel, particularly when Man shows up and his activity levels in the woods ramp-up.
 
#228 ·
No worries on ATV use on Plum Creek or any other paper company properties in my area. Can't speak for other areas but I've spoke to several Plum Creek personnel on the property in the decades hunting here and it's never an issue on their lands. Same with Kimberly Clark and Weyerhaeuser lands. 4x4 trucks, Jeeps and SxS vehicles all use the lands equally. Camping is allowed also.
I may be wrong, but I think that the foot traffic only requirement is a State level statute for CFR lands.
 
#230 ·
I'll look into it. I would have thought after almost 40 years of hunting this tract of land using quads for nearly 30 of them and spending numerous moments talking to DNR officers from the seat of my quad that it would have come up. They check us for ORV stickers and helmets each time we see them. I wouldn't think they'd let something like that slide. They don't in the Hiawatha lands.
 
#236 ·
It usually isn't present around our place (Houghton County) either. Our forester and logger had to delay our harvest by a year because road restrictions hadn't gone in effect soon enough to get all the logs out in one go. Still, this year, our neighbor was just finishing a clear cut of 80 acres AS rifle season started. Weird.

Clearly, active logging impacts deer movement, but I understood that the deer would come back as soon as the loggers quit for the day to browse on the tops. His was mostly red pine plantation, which made me think the deer would not prefer it for anything other than bedding. Now I wonder if that played a role in our reduced sightings this year. I chalked it up mostly to the wolves.
On CFR lands, the MDNR is SUPPOSED to be notified of a planned cut at least a month in advance. MDNR riparian cuts policy is supposed to leave a minimum of a 150' buffer zone adjacent surface waters, a good place for the deer displaced by the logging to move and concentrate.

Did you inquire whether he would replant in red pine or another species, or simply let regeneration proceed on its own pace?
 
#237 · (Edited)
Thanks for the reply! First, I am positive the land is not enrolled in CFR, and there is no way he left 150' between the last stick and year-round creek that goes through his property before it gets to ours. Sad for sure because the normally clear water was running orange like the Ontonagon River! I can't say whether a private harvest requires complicity with the same buffer standard that you cite.

I have never met this neighbor, but he did keep some plantation standing. So, I assume he will replant, but I am happy with any new growth for the deer to browse. Our place is enrolled in QF, and we're targeting natural diversity as a replacement for what was destroyed by Spruce Budworm. We're in year two since our harvest, and the deer don't seem to have benefited meaningfully, but grouse, ermine, fisher, wolf and otter sightings are way up.

EDIT: I did, however, put a note in his mailbox and all other adjacent landowners prior to our harvest, and offered them the opportunity to walk the marked timber--as pseudo-open house, just to be neighborly. No replies from any neighbors; must be the WI plates.
 
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#241 ·
I miss Terry Minzey. He would always return my calls and even call me from time to time. Russ Mason was another who would take my calls or return them. I don’t have to agree with their philosophies to communicate with them regularly. After this covid crap is nothing but a bad memory I plan on meeting with the UP supervisor along with the Wildlife division director. You can’t have too many acquaintances.
 
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#242 ·
I lost a great deal of respect for Russ Mason, when, during an interview with Jimmy Gretzinger focused on deer management he was asked a pointed question on impacts of the late bow season in the U.P.. Jimmy wanted to know whether there was any data indicating an proportionally elevated kill of bucks per number of hunters participating, implying that deer concentrated on winter range or near winter range increased hunter success rates disproportionally. Russ never missed a step quoting hunter success data statewide, not for Region 1. He also stated their proportion as a fraction of the total bow hunter number state wide For a guy with his resume' that answer was not a mistake... He is still around, assigned to be an academic liaison at MSU.

I still owe Terry a debt, he stopped Stacey "Full of Hooey" Haughey when she tried to kick me out of an NRC reception I was specifically invited to...via an email issued under her name! I should have handed her the printed copy of the email in front of the two NRC members standing there, but after Terry intervened and told her he invited me, I waited until she was alone prior doing that. She is vastly over-compensated for her command of the subject and has zero interactive as well as effective communication skills required to effectively conduct her job with any efficiency and reasonably consistent success rate, Shake your head and shout at the heavens stupid!
 
#245 ·
There is a vast difference within every township let alone DMU. I averaged 15 deer per day while bouncing around multiple stand locations on two different properties.

My daughter and son in law did had a much higher per day average than I did during their short stay. Hers was 23 sightings per day. All of us passed bucks that others would be happy to shoot.
 
#246 ·
You sure are correct about differences in deer populations. I had hunted southern Ontonagon county for quite a few years but I have not been seeing hardly any deer there for a number of years so I've been hunting closer to home. I talked to a friend that hunts out of a camp in the Ewen area and he told me that it was one of the worst seasons in memory for their camp and he has been hunting there for over 50 years. In Baraga county between my 3 blinds I saw 18 deer in 6 days of hunting. Every one of the 4 bucks I saw was a spike and I wound up taking one of them on the 22nd. It is even possible that some of the does and fawns that I saw were the same deer at different times. I don't know what the answer is to the lack of deer but wolves, winter kill, and poaching/native American hunting all can be causes along with other things that aren't readily apparent.
 
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