The true impact of poaching.....

[DILLIGAF]

I just finished reading the "Cuffs and Collars" section if Michigan Outdoor News. Here is a breakdown of ONE WEEKS worth of poaching busts; 60 cases of poaching, 22 deer poached, 11 Turkeys poached and one bear poached (PS: poached, is not a cooking method). THAT'S JUST ONE WEEKS WORTH OF POACHING FROM ONE PUBLICATION!

My questions are; How many poachers got away?
What is the real impact on our state's wildlife? Does the DNR take these "unknowns" into consideration when doing the deer counts? Are the fines and punishments for poaching strong enough?

Your thoughts..............

DILLIGAF: i have another question for you . How many deer were killed as a result of crop damage permits ? When i lived in Michigan therw was a tree farm near hasting that came on Mort Neffs Michigan out doors every year it seemend and complained about the amount of deer damamge done by the deer and the DNR would allow them to kill them to reduce the size of the herd. Well me and my brother tried to get permission to hunt on ther eland and they SAID NO WAY !!! I would like to know how many deer are just killed on crop damage permits ?

[Jackone]

Hey Dilligaf, I love your handle. It is the name of my bowling team. I tried to get it here but you had already taken it. Give it back please.

[DILLIGAF]

Originally posted by Jackone:
Hey Dilligaf, I love your handle. It is the name of my bowling team. I tried to get it here but you had already taken it. Give it back please.

Can't do it Jackone. It's the name of my hunt club and not a bad philosophy on life.

[Joe Archer]

Unfortnately, the majority of poachers get away. The group that owns the parcel next to me has been poaching for years and DNR can not catch them in the act. The no baiting laws may have helped though. They can no longer place a couple tons of bait under the street lights they had installed on either sides of their cabin. Shots used to echo through the night. Hopefully, they will sell and move to a different area now. <----<<<

[This message has been edited by Joe Archer (edited 12-01-2000).]

[Joe Archer]

This year when I was up bow-hunting the rut, I had a ten point cross ten yards to my right. I never did get a shot, but the electricity that was added to the next 5 days was incredible! Just seeing these deer is what makes a hunt. That is what poachers take from each and every one of us! I say, remove their right to hunt and/or own firearms .... forever! <----<<<

[Eastern Yooper]

What does the new 'no-baiting' laws have to do with curbing the night shooting your neighbors used to do?

Seems to me it has always been illegal to: (a) use an artificial light and (b) shoot after hunting hours have closed.

I hope you did the right thing and called the law after hearing those shots..... because crying about it on a computer and hoping the idiots "move someplace else" doesn't help the situation one bit.

All a 'no-baiting' law does is ruin a method enjoyed by the vast majority of law-abiding sportsmen. But as usual, the majority pay the price for a relatively few amount of jerks.

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VEGETARIAN: Indian word meaning 'Bad Hunter'

[boehr]

Poaching still is a problem but the fines have went up a lot since the days of the Mort Neff show. Prior to around 1983 the fine for an illegal deer was normally $100 fine, $30 cost, $100 restitution, 5 days in jail, loss of all hunting for 3 years and the year convicted. Now the normal fine is $200 fine, $100 costs, $1,000 restitution, 5 days, and loss of hunting for 3 years. Do they all get that, NO! Some judges are hard on it, some judges will not even go there. Defense attorneys and judges also look for loopholes in the laws to allow poachers to get off. An example is, back in the early 80's there were two different charges for poaching deer. One was, "Illegally kill a deer" and the other was "Willful illegal killing a deer" The first was used by an officer when it was thought that the hunter made a mistake that the officer wanted to charge him with a lsser offense. The wilfull was used for shooting deer at night etc. It got to the point that judges would not take the "wilfull" charge at all so hence, the illegal deer charge came so that all got hammered the same as "wilfull". Now judges find other ways as to drop the charge to a much lesser charge or refuses to charge restitution to some defendants.

There are far fewer summer crop damage permits issued now then there was a one time with the block permit system. As far as people getting permission to hunt those lands with damage, I understand but it is impossible for force a private land owner to allow people to hunt private property and I for one would not even want to get into a situation of attempting to force the opening of private land. It's not going to happen.

The Wildlife biologists do take into consideration an esimate of the numbers of poached animals when setting seasons. Just as they do car/deer accidents, winter kill and everything else.

Yes, the majority of poachers do get away but, it does not have to be that an officer must witness the action. If a citizen sees poaching activity and has enough information and is willing to testify to what they saw, an investigation is done and the choice become the prosecutor's if a warrant for that illegal act in issued.

Baiting does have something to do with curbing night shooting from camps. If you don't draw the deer in at night to see them under the light you can't shoot them. There were very few if any of those camps that used that same bait pile near the camp to hunt during the day.

[Eastern Yooper]

Analogy: Some camps use their baitpiles to shoot deer from at night. Therefore, curbing baiting for everyone is a good way of solving this problem.

Analogy: Some people hammered nails into trees and littered on public property during the course of building blinds; therefore, severly restricting blinds for everyone is a good way of solving this problem.

Analogy: Some people use artificial lights to shine deer and illegally kill them. Therefore, severly restricting shining for everyone is a good way of solving the problem.

Analogy: Some people show wanton disregard for our natural resources while using an ATV and rampantly tear-up the countryside. Therefore, severely restricting ATV use for everyone is a good way of solving the problem.

Analogy: A 6 year-old finds a stolen gun in a crack-house, takes it to school and murders a classmate. Therefore, mandating trigger-locks for all gun owners is a good way of preventing similar tragedies in the future.

Interesting.

[boehr]

You must life a secluded life Yooper. You know the baiting issue has nothing to do with the camps, TB and the debate that goes on within this site and all over for years.

I want you to tell me what purpose does anyone need to be out shining after 11 pm anyway. There is no legal hunting method you can use to locate game with a light to shoot. Take the kids out to show them deer, they are normally sleeping by 11 pm and you can do that prior to 11 pm. You want to scout for deer, go into the woods during the day, you'll learn more.

Blinds, you talk in circles, you better go back and read all my other posts for the many causes!

ATV's, get off the kick about some people, a lot of people. You obviously just want to shine at night, hunt over a truck load of bait, build a shack on the public's property and call it your own, riding your ATV to get there. Yes, I have trigger locks on everyone of my guns because I want to. If you don't that's fine maybe you are immune from a terrible thing happening to you. Your choice!

Sorry those arn't analogies, they are facts. Your analogies would be because you don't do something, there should be no law. Well wake up, not everybody is even close to being like you.

[This message has been edited by boehr (edited 12-02-2000).]

[Pat Eddinger]

boehr,
Is there really no way to restrict the number of bloc permits to those land owners that don't allow hunters access?As an incentive somehow?There's gotta be a way.
You know the area where I'm at,and know about the huge land holdings and leases where no hunting is allowed,yet the bloc permits get passed out and from there sometimes sold to folks.I know that's illeagal!Max Hanley(The deceased!)used to poach the cornfields all summer on one of the places closed to hunters,and took quite a few Huge bucks.It's just a shame that we have the solution to the farmers problem and middle ground can't be found or forced.
I disagree with some of your opinions,but I would like to thank you and the rest in the enforcement side for what you folks do.
Idiots like Max Hanley take more than just deer away from us.Pat

[Eastern Yooper]

boehr:

Obviously you and I are going to keep knocking-heads on some of these issues. I live a secluded life? What a self-righteous, condescending thing to say.

Folks: Its obvious that boehr is in favor of more laws to further choke the sportsmen of this great state. And therein lies the difference between my opponent boehr, and me:

I believe the men and women of this state are not staying-up late at night trying to find ways to violate. Apparantly boehr does, and he feels he is walking the thin blue line between maintaining order and outright anarchy in our state so far as hunting and fishing is concerned. I think if he was driving a State Police car, he'd be ticketing folks for doing 71 mph on the interstate.
I'll sum it up like this: He trusts the governemnt and more laws; I trust you.

I believe the DNR should help people enjoy the outdoors, not control and dominate them.

[stelmon]

i wonder the cost is for shooting a deer and not tagging it and then taking what u need and leave the carcass out there...I found 2 out while I was hutnig...boehr can u help on this one..Thanks

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Stelmon, the only one.
Keep those bullets flying and reels screamen

[mjp]

Before I get harpooned for this let me start by saying that I am in no way infavor poaching. That said, lets look at the numbers cited. 22 deer +11 turkeys + 1 bear = 34 not 60. Given tha thousands of folks that are in the woods this time of year I don't think that 34 illegally taken critters is all that bad, not acceptable but not too bad. I think that the vast majority of people in the woods are ethical law abiding folks and that the people who shoot deer with lights etc. are the exception. Now for the good part, I also think that the DNR works on the assumption that most people who venture afield are going to eventually violate. I'm not going to shoot any critter with a light and the 11pm rule assumes if I decide to go out some night after 11pm I may not be able to control myself. If I'm on my way home from work at midnight and see a good buck cross the road and I stop to put my headlights on him for a second I'm a violater, I don't think so. I also have a feed pile under a light off my deck, if there comes a rule against this because somebody shoots a deer from the house I guess I will be a violator because I will not stop because of some dumb ass. I think that many of the DNR rules are there because in the past people have acted in unethical ways and we are all being made to pay for it. The hardcore game hogs are not stopped by any of these rules, only the law abiding of us will. I'm afraid that sooner or later we will get to a point that all of us will be labeled a violator because of attempts by the DNR to regulate morality upon those who enjoy the outdoors.

[boehr]

stelmon...the cost for an untagged deer is entirely up to the judge in the county where the violation happened. By law it is suppose to be a minumim of $50 and a maximum of $500 and 90 days, where in between that, it's up to the judge.

Yooper...the government is the people, the same ones you and I both vote for or don't you vote? You turn things around to make a point that really doesn't apply, and make statements and assumptions that you indicate I say that is an outright lie. I will not lower myself to your level by making personal references about you simply because I don't know you, I do know just a few of your opinions.

The DNR does not assume that everyone will violate sooner or later. It has always been the DNR's position that only about 2% of the people poach. I still believe that. Unfortunately, that 2% keeps CO's busy enough and thankfully we have a majority of the hunters out there that help us. Of course that leaves a few that are not poachers but they either don't care or don't want to become involved.