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Firearms Discussion of all firearm weapons, including Concealed Carry Weapons, Muzzleoaders, Rifles, Shotguns, Reloading, Target Shooting, Black power tech. No sales please.

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  #1  
Old 03-23-2011, 02:12 PM
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Default Rifle ownership transfer

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If I buy a rifle and then give it to someone as a gift is there a transfer of ownership form? Who is responsible if something happens and I don't even have the gun?
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:20 PM
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Who is responsible if something happens and I don't even have the gun?
You are.
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  #3  
Old 03-23-2011, 03:36 PM
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NO you are not!

The trigger finger owner is responsible!!!

Long guns are completely different than handguns.

You are simply required to ask a few basic questions before you sell or give a long gun to someone. If you hand it off to a felon.......well thats a different story!

Long guns are NOT registered to owners by the BATF, in fact the BATF can not track ownership of long guns, its against your constitutional rights.

Now all that said, it would be a good idea to cover your bases during a transfer and get a bill of sale signed and hold on to it for a bit.

check out the michigan gun owners forum, lots of info and legalities listed.
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:41 PM
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Rugerdog, Did you mean knowingly hand off to a felon?
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Rugergundog View Post
NO you are not!

The trigger finger owner is responsible!!!

Long guns are completely different than handguns.

You are simply required to ask a few basic questions before you sell or give a long gun to someone. If you hand it off to a felon.......well thats a different story!

Long guns are NOT registered to owners by the BATF, in fact the BATF can not track ownership of long guns, its against your constitutional rights.

Now all that said, it would be a good idea to cover your bases during a transfer and get a bill of sale signed and hold on to it for a bit.

check out the michigan gun owners forum, lots of info and legalities listed.
I would hold to the bill of sale till I die.
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:06 PM
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My guess is if you sold an AK to an obviously deranged man or a some random home-T from downtown, you might take some heat for that if things go south. And rightfully so.

But if you sell or give a hunting rifle to someone and he does something stupid, doubtful you'd get any flack.

Besides--people lie about taking drugs on their purchase forms all day long. Are sellers supposed to drug test them? Only so much you can do I guess.

I think you'll be fine if you use your best judgment.
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:18 PM
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exactly, you can not hand of a firearm to a known felon.

There is a set of basic criteria you are expected to ask a perspective buyer. Along with that a "common sense" standard. I.E. handing a gun over to a unstable person.

This has nothing to do with an AK....and its sad that people immediately jump to that conclusion. Just as many dip sticks committing crime here in our country with sawed of 12ga pumps and other rifles as assault rifles.

When you go to Jays or Gander or any other place and they run that BATF check it does NOT register that long gun to you. In fact the serial number is not called in just the type of gun as it has to do with the type of check done. Those forms you fill out at the counter are suppose to be destroyed.

Ive bought and sold over 10 long guns this year alone as I collect military stuff and often change my collection from one to the next. Ive sold them all face to face to people i judged to be in good standing and who told me they were not felons. I have no worries at all about those guns coming back to haunt me legally if the new owners do something stupid.

As I said earlier, when in doubt hold on to a simple bill of sale.

Google this subject you will find lots of answers.
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:16 AM
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Those forms you fill out at the counter are suppose to be destroyed.
Since when? They have to be kept by the dealer for at least 20 years and if the dealer surrenders his license, they have to be shipped to the ATF.
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:42 PM
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Kept by the "dealer" not the BATF are two completely different things.
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Old 03-24-2011, 10:13 PM
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Kept by the "dealer" not the BATF are two completely different things.
What does that matter? You said that they are destroyed. If you don't know what you're talking about, just keep quiet and maybe you'll learn something. It's obvious that you've never been in the business.
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:25 AM
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Since when? They have to be kept by the dealer for at least 20 years and if the dealer surrenders his license, they have to be shipped to the ATF.


I just turned in 30 odd years of 4473's and bound book records myself...

Manufacturer hands off to the distributor, distributor to the dealer, dealer to the over the counter customer. .
The customer fills out a 4473 form, is background checked, the buyer takes the gun home. Same for long guns and hand guns except hand guns have the extra paperwork: Permit to purchase or CPL.
Now...the 4473 form. It stays with dealer as stated above. At each change of hands the serial #, model, make are recorded in and out of posession, even to a gunsmith for repair...yes long guns (other than muzzle loaders) can be traced from the manufacturer to the final over the counter buyer who fills out the 4473.

If the buyer then gives, sells or trades the long gun it's good to keep a record of some sort, bill of sale, with a copy of transferees ID in his own "save your butt" file...(That's how they've traced siezed guns in Mexico back to the several shops who sold them. Phony ID or straw purchasers may or may not have been caught as the middlemen.)

A good place to save that info is to staple a note on the original receipt...IE; "Given to uncle Joe in trade for his bow, 2/12/2011", "Sold to John Doe, MI DL #3xx xxx xxx xxx, 2/12/2011" and store it safely away, forever.
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:09 PM
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What does that matter? You said that they are destroyed. If you don't know what you're talking about, just keep quiet and maybe you'll learn something. It's obvious that you've never been in the business.
I do know what im talking about. The rules that apply to a licensed FFL are different than those of a individual buyer seller. "I" do not need to utilize the forms for background, SN, etc. FFL and C&R holders are under completely different restrictions than the general gun owner buyer, seller.

Im not going to get into a internet battle with you over this. BATF cannot track your purchases! And when the simple rules are followed the seller is not viable for actions of the buyer!
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Last edited by Rugergundog; 03-25-2011 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:25 PM
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I do know what im talking about. The rules that apply to a licensed FFL are different than those of a individual buyer seller. "I" do not need to utilize the forms for background, SN, etc. FFL and C&R holders are under completely different restrictions than the general gun owner buyer, seller.

Im not going to get into a internet battle with you over this. BATF cannot track your purchases! And when the simple rules are followed the seller is not viable for actions of the buyer!
Quit changing the subject, you just keep looking more foolish. In your post you said, and I quote "Those forms you fill out at the counter are suppose to be destroyed". That's totally false. I've been here long enough to know that there's not a thread that you don't like having your name attached to. That's fine as long as it's opinions, but when it's a gun business question, you're clearly talking out of somewhere besides your mouth.
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:06 PM
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Quit changing the subject, you just keep looking more foolish. In your post you said, and I quote "Those forms you fill out at the counter are suppose to be destroyed". That's totally false. I've been here long enough to know that there's not a thread that you don't like having your name attached to. That's fine as long as it's opinions, but when it's a gun business question, you're clearly talking out of somewhere besides your mouth.
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