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Firearms Discussion of all firearm weapons, including Concealed Carry Weapons, Muzzleoaders, Rifles, Shotguns, Reloading, Target Shooting, Black power tech. No sales please.

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  #1  
Old 10-30-2008, 11:44 AM
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Default 209 primers....is there a difference?

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I'm showcasing my ignorance here I know, but I have to ask.

Is there much of a difference in 209 primers from one company to another?

My primers are very old (5 yrs plus), should I replace them? and with what brand?

I'm talking about for use in my muzzle loader.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:48 AM
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I have been using the Remington 209's for years without any misfires or problems whatsoever in my TC Encore. Try them you will like them. They go by the name Kleenbore.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:03 PM
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There is a difference. The 209s labeled as muzzleloader are not as hot as the standard 209s. If you are using 777 conventional wisdom states that the muzzleloader 209s will give less of a "crud ring". Others say they special muzzleloader primers don't help.

If you are using BlackHorn 209 you want to use standard 209s. In fact, I use the hottest 209s available. Federal 209A.

Here is a pretty interesting method to compare primers:
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Technical3.html
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:16 PM
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There can be a huge difference in 209 primers as stated above. The Remington Kleenbores have a bit less power and gave less fouling in my Encore with Pyrodex. The Fed 209As are quite a bit hotter.

There is no magic solution and any generic 209 will work, just at different power levels which affect velocity, blowback, recoil, and fouling for your specific load.

5 years is no problem for primer shelf life as long as they are not obviously corroded or stained, etc.
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:38 PM
skipper34 skipper34 is offline
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Like I said in my post, the only primers I have used have been the Kleenbores and they work just dandy with my load, which is 100 gr. Pyrodex pellets and a TC Shockwave 250 gr. in TC Encore. At 100 yards, I can cover my 3-shot group with a silver dollar. This means that I am covered for all of my Michigan hunting situations.
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:49 PM
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yes there is a difference.

one brand, however, is not more accurate than another.

it's part of the load, and you could see some POI variance by switching brands. that's it.

5 year old primers are young, imo.

i'm still using primers that are 30 years old.
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:52 PM
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Thanks for your responses. I'll keep using what I have been using until their gone. Then maybe I'll look into something that would be easier to clean.
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rzdrmh View Post
yes there is a difference.

one brand, however, is not more accurate than another.

it's part of the load, and you could see some POI variance by switching brands. that's it.

5 year old primers are young, imo.

i'm still using primers that are 30 years old.
I just found 3/4 of a brick of CCI 109s from when I reloaded shotgun shells 20 years ago.
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:35 PM
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I'm new to this M/L thing also but I have a buddy who has hunted for years with M/L's & he was telling me about information he read. Apparently some testing thats has gone on with primers and it's being indicated that "hot" primers may not be best for M/L. Apparently the testing was done by loading no charge(no pellets, powder whatever) just the slug. What they found was that the primers were so powerful they were able to discharge the M/L just using the primer at 300-400 feet per second. Thats pretty dang fast if you've ever paintballed you know what it's like to get hit by a gun shooting over 300 imagine a slug! Further it was found that the primer was so hot a portion of the charge when loaded was unburned and thus more buildup in the bbl. I found his information intriguing but I cannot provide any site to validate it.
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mparks View Post
I just found 3/4 of a brick of CCI 109s from when I reloaded shotgun shells 20 years ago.
that's funny.. you don't have a need for any *57 primers do you ? i have about 5 bricks of them in the basement

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Originally Posted by FYRE926 View Post
I'm new to this M/L thing also but I have a buddy who has hunted for years with M/L's & he was telling me about information he read. Apparently some testing thats has gone on with primers and it's being indicated that "hot" primers may not be best for M/L. Apparently the testing was done by loading no charge(no pellets, powder whatever) just the slug. What they found was that the primers were so powerful they were able to discharge the M/L just using the primer at 300-400 feet per second. Thats pretty dang fast if you've ever paintballed you know what it's like to get hit by a gun shooting over 300 imagine a slug! Further it was found that the primer was so hot a portion of the charge when loaded was unburned and thus more buildup in the bbl. I found his information intriguing but I cannot provide any site to validate it.
yes - a 209 primer is going to burn in the neighborhood of 4-5000 degrees, and generate enough pressure to push a bullet out of the barrel - seen it happen twice under hunting conditions where my buddies pellets got damp and didn't ignite.

i think the thing to remember, however, is that all 209's are relatively overkill for igniting something with such a low flash point as black powder or pyrodex/777. 209's were employed because they were accessible and large enough to handle in hunting conditions without any jacket or shroud. imagine using a cci 200, or a federal 210, etc, without having a jacket to make placement in the breech easier.

now, with smokeless powders, or powders that have a higher nitro content, the flash point is much higher, requiring a hot ignition.

but for the purposes of muzzleloading in general, a mild cci 209, or a moderate winchester 209, or a hot federal 209 will all achieve very acceptable results.
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:50 AM
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i couldn't believe how much fouling you get from a 209 primer till i run a patch down my barrel after firing just a primer..i shoot triple seven an they make a triple 7 primer so i tried some. no differance on paper that i could see but my breach plug was dirtier than with a winchester 209. i called T/C and asked them what primer and they recommended CCI primers for my pro hunter..so that's what i'm using,i figure they have done way more testing than i could ever do ...
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:50 PM
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I read an article that seems to make a lot of sense explaining how too much ignition power can reduce accuracy and make your crude ring worse. It talks about the variflame primer adapter and how it improves on the 209. Google muzzleloadingbullets variflame.
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Old 01-15-2010, 07:20 PM
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As technology goes along there is somethings that will change. Today with the Blackhorn 209 Powder that is used with ML's this powder is hollow and the hotter primer is better for use with it especially in Cold Weather. So the Federal 209A is the one that burns hotter and works best and from many they are saying that they have shot many times before swabbing the barrel like you normally have to with other Black Powders and Subs. So that is why many are switching to the Blackhorn 209 and Federal 209A primers. Each has different set ups with different powders some have a max of what powder and how much can be used though they say 150 can be used many find that the 90 to 110 is what works well in different ML's. That is why many test and find what powder, primer and sabot work the best out of their ML. I shoot a Knight Disc Elite in 50 with a 100 of 777 and a Shockwave 250 grain Sabot w/ a Winchester Primer it works well except the fouling and swabbing between shots. I bought some of the Blackhorn 209 and Federal 209A that I am going to try with the Shockwave one of these days but with a new job and no time off I have put it on the backburner for now... Maybe one of these days. But they say the Blackhorn Powder is just another advancement in ML Powders like pyrodex and the 777 now it is Blackhorn 209. Use what works for you and when you have used up your stuff might be time to try something new... It can't hurt and less fouling is always a good thing and no swabbing between shots is okay too!!!

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Old 01-16-2010, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grafik0117 View Post
I read an article that seems to make a lot of sense explaining how too much ignition power can reduce accuracy and make your crude ring worse. It talks about the variflame primer adapter and how it improves on the 209. Google muzzleloadingbullets variflame.
I use the Variflame with CCI 400s; greatly reduced fouling with Pyrodex.
Bit of a PITA to seat your own primers but I bought extra cups and always have plenty ready to go.
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:40 AM
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I have read about the possibility of the 209 primer burning so hot and with so much pressure it cause distortion in the sabot and cause fliers. To combat this people have been switching to the .25 caliber primer. Apparently they make a breach plug that allows you to fit a .25 caliber casing with the primer already in it. They seem to really like this and apparently they have ballistics to back it up.
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