Pigeon River Country State Forest Plan review

[Dick Kleinhardt]

I am a dairy farmer, veteran, hunter, fisherman, and horseback rider! I spoke at the Gaylord Rally which was portrayed as hostile. Passionate yes, hostile no! When my rights are being messed with I tend to voice my opinions. When asked if anyone was present representing the DNR, the room was silent. After my talk a fellow came over to me and said that one of the most powerful guys in the DNR was in the room. After the meeting I had an opportunity to intercept him as he was walking out the door. I introduced myself and as we were talking a newspaper guy was doing that scribbly stuff! The bottom line is that he told me that they've had a lot of pressure from "fringe groups" and that we horse people should just stay out of the Pigeon and ride the heck out of the other 400 and some odd thousand acres. I told him that was insulting and arrogant to not only me personally but to my family and friends who have enjoyed riding the PRC for more than 20 years! I told him that it was our land, not the DNR's! I also told the crowd that I've been in contact with Nugent's folks and Mr. Ted is not going to be thrilled!!!!! We've always regarded our state forests as a priviledge and right to ride! Furthermore I heard that there were other DNR folks there and they were instructed to not identify themselves, wear anything with DNR on it; and just write down the names of the individuals that were speaking! WOW!!!!! Is this America or where am I????
The DNR is coming up with all of these erroneous claims i.e. Noxious weeds, Elk leaving the forest as a result of horses, 17 section deemed incompatible with horses, 53,000 acres not harmonious with horses, and on and on it goes. We have scientific data refuting all of these allegations! We have been camping legally in some 15 remote campsites that were approved by the DNR, not just anywhere and everywhere as was mis-stated by the spinsters! Tourism will take a huge hit as well; we drop big dollars into the community!
The bottom line here ladies and gentlemen is that this is a pre-destined intentionally exclusionary elitist agenga targeting horses! Mr. Jacobson wondered what the legislators thought of the Gaylord DNR Rally! Let me tell you what they thought of it: they thought enough of it to hold a special committee hearing chaired by Rep. Joel Sheltrown (D) who is the Chairman of the House Tourism, Outdoor Recreation, and NRC Committee. I had the opportunity this past Tuesday, May 13th, as did my fellow comrades to let our side of the story be heard. The DNR testified 1st and was caught in the usual spin cycle.
I would encourage any and all outdoor enthusiasts to stand up and be counted. This is our land to enjoy responsibly! Call your legislators; right now it's the horse issue; it's only a matter of time and they will be dealing with your land rights!

[Chappy]

I'm writing on behalf of the thousands of Horsemen in the state of Michigan
The horse industry in Michigan is a 8 billion dollar industry. The on going battle with the Michigan horsemen and the NRC/DNR
Our Family's history of the PRC dates back to the early 1900's Long before P.S.Lovejoy had his vission!
this land was setteld by my husband father his fore fathers and I would like to add that it in FACT was settled on the BACK OF A HORSE! They logged the prc with horses Our children and grandchildren are raised on the backs of our horses. The NRC/DNR is now telling the Horsemen of Michigan that they must take there children and grandchildren out on the roads to ride and if we do not we will be ticketed! what do you think will happen when a log truck or a motorhome comes barreling down a dirt road at my child on a horse? A horse is a prey animal...prey animals have a fear/ flight instinct.. botling is the most dangerous flight of a prey animal....Horse flesh and steel do not mix!..The state has Opened up their self's to numerous Lawsuits with the new 2008 plan..I hope that they are prepared to deal with the rules they have set forth!!!
Governor's new ..NO Child Left Inside Days ...has infact turned into....LEAD YOUR CHILD IN THE ROAD DAYS!!
we horsemen have heard everything from Noxious weeds to bugcuts to impact on land ba ba baaa its all lip service!!Trying to give the horsemen of michigan a black eye with Fasle statements of a hostile crow while they hide in street clothing at rally's and take names of speakers. loud cheers for what we believe in at a rally is far from hostile! ITS OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHTS AS AMERICANS!!! Mr. Jacobson could not have been further from the truth in his letter to the Michigan outdoor news...and a reply was submitted on behalf of the Michigan horsemen PLU...(Public Land USE) us good ole boys will have a say in the matter. for it was us good ole boys who founded this country on the back of a horse!and before I forget my family buys a permit to both hunt and fish every year..soooo what your point?
*Note to Mickey finn* son its a dam good thing my horse was no ware to be found when yer flea bit pup was so called putting horses in there place my horse dont like dogs and your's would have been gut stomped if he would have come after my Hoss!
*note hamilton reef* taste your word before you spit them out son <coward> is mighty strong word for such a lil feller!
Visit
michigan horsemen plu . com

[Hamilton Reef]

Thank you Dick Kleinhardt and chappy. Keep stating your case. There are horse supporters in our MUCC district that will be making your case at MUCC convention.

[USST164]

MUCC will be of little help on the issue .They've already taken a position. They don't care about the snowmobilers or the horseback riders.

http://www.mucc.org/policy/policyrep...t_04-18-08.pdf

[Dick Kleinhardt]

It's just too bad that most members of MUCC are being influenced by a very few radical people who are stating incorrect statements regarding those who enjoy the PRC on horseback. It is also too bad regarding the USST statement just made that MUCC doesn't care about snowmobilers and horseback riders. We as good people of this state SHOULD care about all user groups and try and work together. This is exactly what a very few like to see----strife and user group conflict! You will find conflicts in every walk of life no matter where you look-but in reality, it is only a very FEW that are causing all to have a bad name! The great majority of horseback riders respect hunters during their season-most are hunters themselves! Most horsemen leave their camps cleaner then when they first found it as well...We do feel the PRC is a special place and tend to enjoy it for many generations to come!

[brdhntr]

Originally Posted by USST164

MUCC will be of little help on the issue .They've already taken a position. They don't care about the snowmobilers or the horseback riders.

http://www.mucc.org/policy/policyrep...t_04-18-08.pdf

Where in that link does MUCC take a position on this? I see where it recaps what happened in the NRC meeting, but that is the only place I see it.

While I support the horse people in that they should be able to use these areas (my mother and sister frequent camp in the area), they need to realize that there may be restrictions placed on the use due to the nature of the way the lands were purchased. (note bold text)

These regulations are necessary to protect the wild character of the Pigeon River Country, and to achieve greater compatibility with federal grant fund requirements associated with the acquisition and management of the Pigeon River Country. A majority of the land was purchased with hunting and fishing license fee monies.

There are very specific uses that lands paid for by hunting and fishing license fees and horseback riding without restriction is not one of them.

[USST164]

Read where is says " These regulations are necessary to protect the wild character, the pigeon River country, and to achieve greater compatibility with federal grant funds requirements associated with the acquisition and management of the pigeon River country " . Thats taking a position, and there's more documentation to go to the MUCC site.

Right now the state of Michigan is trying to put together a state wide recreational plan, so they can qualify for federal money. That money is used to expand recreational activities. Not to curtail them.

[Trail Rider]

Folks, we all need to check, and verify all the claims, rationalizations and justifications that the DNR is using.
According their own PRCF Management Plan approximately 50% of the land purchased in the Pigeon River was from fish and game funds. The rest was tax reverted lands or purchased with other sources or exchanges. Besides, the use of these fish and game funds does not exclude other user groups.
Also, according to the DNR over 12,000 acres of land was purchased with Natural Trust Fund monies. The Natural Trust Fund gets it's money from profits taken off of public lands such as oil and gas leases. "Lease revenues and royalties from State owned land would be used for the purchase of new recreational lands for public use to provide enhanced recreational opportunities." Yet horse back riders and bike riders are prohibited from continued access of these lands (Green Timbers and Blue Lakes).
The federal Pittman-Robertson Act is also called the Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act. Title 16, Chapter 5 B, Section 669a To receive funds under the Act, a state must submit to the Federal Secretary of the Interior either a comprehension plan or a detailed project. Wildlife resource management plans "shall insure the perpetuation of (wildlife) resources for economic, scientific and recreational enrichment of the people. Such plans are to be based on the projections of desires and needs of the people." Section 669A Definitions (5) The term "wildlife-associated recreation" means projects intended to meet the demand for outdoor activities associated with wildlife including, but not limited to, hunting and fishing, wildlife observation and photography, such projects as construction or restoration of wildlife viewing areas, observation towers, blinds, platforms, land and water trails, water access, field trailing, trial head and access for such projects"
Did you catch the "not limited to hunting and fishing" part ? I believe that the outdoor activity that we engage in while camping and riding our horses in Pigeon River meets the "wildlife observation and photography on trails" intent. The federal law does not say or even imply that the State should limit or squelch the demand, but rather should be taking steps to "MEET the demands for outdoor activities."

Forcing riders out onto vehicle roads is very dangerous. It would only take one reckless driver and one very scared horse for a tragedy to occur. There are many miles of dirt barricaded or gated roads that are closed to traffic that would be safe to ride on and not endanger the environment. Yet the DNR has prohibited us from continuing to ride in safety. With recent new acquisitions the Pigeon River Forest is now over 118,000 acres. Surely, there is room for all user groups to safely enjoy this, OUR public lands.

[USST164]

Originally Posted by brdhntr

Where in that link does MUCC take a position on this? I see where it recaps what happened in the NRC meeting, but that is the only place I see it.

While I support the horse people in that they should be able to use these areas (my mother and sister frequent camp in the area), they need to realize that there may be restrictions placed on the use due to the nature of the way the lands were purchased. (note bold text)

These regulations are necessary to protect the wild character of the Pigeon River Country, and to achieve greater compatibility with federal grant fund requirements associated with the acquisition and management of the Pigeon River Country. A majority of the land was purchased with hunting and fishing license fee monies.

There are very specific uses that lands paid for by hunting and fishing license fees and horseback riding without restriction is not one of them.

Here's some words from the May 13 th NRC meeting .



" Amy Spray, resource policy specialist for the Michigan United Conservation Clubs, said the new regulations would give teeth to what had been informal recommendations. "It's really the difference, if you're from local government, between planning and zoning," she said.
The MUCC supported the new restrictions and Ms. Spray said her organization is open to the idea of an access pass that would allow horse riders and others to contribute to buying and supporting land.
Of the Pigeon River's 118,000 acres, 53,000 acres were purchased with funds from hunting and fishing permits.
In order to qualify for federal Pitman-Robertson funds, Mr. Eichinger said that the DNR could not appear to use the Pigeon River lands for purposes other than hunting or wildlife management. "Lands purchased using hunting funds can only be used for hunting or wildlife management," he said.
He said the DNR was advised in a federal pre-audit report that $10.6 million the federal government had given recently could be revoked. "


There's your MUCC quotes.

Notice Mr Eichinger never gave specifics on who said Michigan was in jeopardy of losing some funds. Just could be. Another lie , just a ploy to get the banished to stay away from the pigeon River area.

Now here's the lies , Pittman Robertson doesn't say horses can't be allowed , the elk are there along with other game 365 days a year and the land is managed for them. So you meet the requirements for the Pittman Robertson. By the way out of 118,000 acres , Pittman Robertson land is less then 15 acres .

There is federal funding that is in jeopardy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_an...servation_Fund

http://www.nps.gov/lwcf/

Now if the ATV riders , the snowmobilers , the bicyclists & the horseback riders were to contact the White House, who gives recommendations on federal funding , that their opportunities in this state are being whittle away , then the sate would definitely be unqualified to receive federal funding.

I would suggest that the disenfranchised start a letter writing campaign to the White House and the Department of the Interior also.

[Cowgirlup1948]

We are not against restrictions...The DNR have never told us where we can or cannot ride..There are only 2 trails off limits for us and they are posted.
Now all of a sudden we are restricted to the blue trail and vehicle roads....?
The vehicle roads are DANGEROUS. I had a an incident last year while riding on one of the sandy roads. A group of teenagers in a jeep came flying around a corner and nearly hit the back end of my horse...I gave the kids a lecture about driving that fast on roads where there were horses...Did they care ??No They went around the next corner and took off as fast as they could.. People driving do not look for horses on the roads...Neither do the logging trucks, or the gas trucks...I live about a half mile from State lands, and when I ride I usually trailer down there because with the big trucks on the roads it to dangerous for me to ride the road to get there..Is it going to take a fatal or near fatal accident for the DNR to see the dangerous situation that it is.We are only asking for them to be fair with us. Is that so hard? We can all use the PRC harmonously if we work at it...I really don't think the DNR wants to...
By the way check out trail riders post...She has some interesting facts.
I love the PRC and I want to do my part to preserve it..We need to work together for the good of the PRC!
Mom

[brdhntr]

Again, I am not saying that what the MDNR did was right. If the feds are threatening to revoke hunter monies because of this, they need to act, and possibly they jumped overboard. Getting militant and accusing people of lying is not going to help the situation, and likely will cause folks to dig in their heels. The field trial folks went through this same exact thing a couple years ago. Might be worthwhile to talk to some of them to see how they got it resolved.

Since I haven't been directly involved, I'm going to reserve judgement on what went on until I get more info.

Hopefully, I won't get in too much trouble with Cowgirlup1948 next time I'm home.

[Cowgirlup1948]

No problem...You are not banned from home...We just all need to work together for the good of the PRC...Trail Riders only want to be treated fairly...I have read that all of the horse offistes have been turned into reagular camping sites...We have 12 camping sites at Elk Hill...The overflow is for group camping only upon reservation...No reservations for Elk Hill. If you drive a long distance and get to Elk Hill and it's full, you are out of luck.You have no where to camp....Also we have been restrictded to the Shore to Shore trail, county roads, and service rds. We are not allowed to ride the bermed roads...We are only asking to set the trails up to be safe...Again...ROAD RIDING IS NOT SAFE......
cowgirlup1948

[Dick Kleinhardt]

I hope all who visit the PRC, who go there now to enoy the Big Wild, will be able to see past all the obnoxious signs......Welcome to our new Socialist Government folks.....With the minimal so called damage caused by the horses it is nothing like what is caused by the logging that has been done in the past and is now on the docket to be increased! They needed to close the forest down in order to make room for the Loggers to move in! Enjoy the woods now hunters-as you know it- it soon will be gone....150 acres slated soon......over 300 acres is scheduled for next year............FOLLOW THE MONEY! I guess the trenches from their trucks and equipment are a good thing?????? Wonder how they measure their noise level?

[USST164]

Originally Posted by brdhntr

Again, I am not saying that what the MDNR did was right. If the feds are threatening to revoke hunter monies because of this, they need to act, and possibly they jumped overboard. Getting militant and accusing people of lying is not going to help the situation, and likely will cause folks to dig in their heels. The field trial folks went through this same exact thing a couple years ago. Might be worthwhile to talk to some of them to see how they got it resolved.

Since I haven't been directly involved, I'm going to reserve judgement on what went on until I get more info.

Hopefully, I won't get in too much trouble with Cowgirlup1948 next time I'm home.

The DNR won't dig in their heels , that makes their multiple lies easier to expose. No one in state government has either mentioned a name in the federal government or what department in the federal government that even stated the state of Michigan was in jeopardy of losing federal funding because of horses in the pigeon River Forest. Just a might be , could be , it's possible... and more B S.

[M1Garand]

The PRF is one of the areas I hunt and I've walked a lot of miles around there. I have no dog in the fight as far as the claim of what type or how much damage they do. In all the time I've put in up there, the only signs I've personally seen of horses are at the campgrounds, a few road apples, and some tracks. I have no issues with riders, I think it would be a great time riding the area....but I would be interested in seeing the damage that is being claimed or suggested by the professionals.

According to the May 18th minutes, "A majority of the land was purchased with hunting and fishing license fee monies."

How much or what percentage, I don't know but I agree with the idea of an access pass to ride in the area, esp for activities that have maintained areas. Create one that non hunters/fishermen would have to buy but it comes free when you buy a hunting/fishing license....and if they're going to do that for riders, then they also need to make it required for all the other activities.....dog walkers, birdwatchers, campers, kayakers, canoers, backpackers/hikers, dog sledders, mushroom and berry pickers, etc., etc. Let them shoulder some of the financial burden as well...they use and enjoy these areas too.