New trout regulations

[Steve]

What does everyone think about the new trout stream regulations this year. Do you think they are easier to understand than before?

[gmaschke]

I would have to definately so "NO" I reviewed them the other day and am afraid to venture out and accidentally violate. Seems the DNR has been making its fishing and hunting guides tougher to interpret every year. I'm going to have to hire an attorney to follow me into the outdoors so he/she can interpret the rules for me. They mean well I'm sure Oh Well!

[Steve]

When I heard they were coming out with the stream classifications this year, I had no idea there would be so many. And even with all of those stream classes there are still exceptions like there always has been.

[toto]

In trying to decifer the new regs. I think they are a little better to figure out. As long as you know what stream you are on, and where you are geographically, they are pretty easy. I don't however, agree with some of the changes to individual streams. For example, the new regs on the Platte river are in my opinion, not the way to go. I attended a meeting of the Benzie area Steelheaders last week and was shocked by what I heard, the Platte is now a type IV stream and now open the year round up to US31 east of Honor. Not only that, but you are also allowed to use any style of hook or lure you wish, as long as it is a legal hook or lure. If you recall, the Platte has always been a indicator stream for the DNR for the steelhead, as is the LIttle manistee, why would they allow this? In talking to Tom Rozich for the DNR, he indicated that the lower Platte will still be closed from Labor Day weekend to Oct 15 to fishing to help with the spawners. If we can still fish steelies all year round otherwise how is this helping these spawing fish? Thats my only concern with the new regs. SORRY I was so long.

[ron]

does anyone have any clue as to why the p.m. would be no kill? havent gotten my hands on athe "new guide" yet so ive heard second hand thats its not kill in the flys only section. does this include fall for kings? if so we all know salmon die anyway so why not allow us the old limit of 1? what up

[Steve]

Not shure why. Might be easier to enforce for the CO's as now if they see anyone in there with fish, they know they are violating.

[WEEZER]

Just a small section of the PM is no kill! It does include chins and coho. The Pm has one of the highest natural reproduction rates in the state for steelhead and salmon that's why it is targeted for no kill. The salmon season is going to be a mess though. Many times I have tried to release chins, the water temps are often too high and they go belly up. Other than that I love the new regulations!!!!!!!!!!
While we are on the subject of spawning :Please Don't walk on the redds, beds polished gravel or what ever you want to call them... Pass the word ~Rick

[Hamilton Reef]

I can live with the no kill on the PM mostly to protect the reproduction of trout, steelhead, and salmon. Yes salmon die after spawning, but the limited nutrients added to the stream is food for the aquatic life, fry and smolts.

I would also like to see a no kill zone below all the dams for one mile or more on those rivers with spawning habitat and capable of producing natural reproduction. And while at it, we definately need to close the walleye season in the rivers at the end of February on such rivers as the Muskegon and White. The massive slaughter of the big brood walleye on the White River was obscene the last two years in warm and low water conditions. Our local R.O'N fish biologist also loss his public support when he stated at our WLASA meeting he didn't care if the big walleye spawners were killed.

[toto]

I don't mind the new regulations, even though in some circumstances (Platte) they are confusing as always. According to Tom Rozich from the DNR, the Platte and the Little Manistee rivers haven't changed their regs. Now if that is so, why aren't they (DNR) watching a little more closely for illegal fishing. I see people fishing all the time upstream from M-22 and all the way up to US 31 just downstream from the hatchery. I have asked them (DNR) to watch a little closer, but still I see them fishing where they aren't suppose to, what gives with that?

[WEEZER]

Hey Bill, I had a bunch of guys at work today talking about fishing the Platte and Betsie today. I'm glad they weren't heading to the Ausable!!!!! I hope they don't run into any redds on your stream cause I don't think they care too much about limits and hook size ! They requested 17Lb.
~Rick

[toto]

Yeah you see that junk all the time. Especially in the coho season. It makes me wonder where the DNR is all time. But I quess it isn't me who has to be their watcher. As for the regulations, I cannot understand where the DNR is when these guys are fishing the Platte, especially where they are fishing.

[Steve]

As for the new trout regulations book with the maps, I like it. Looking at the stream map and the color is nice. I just wish they would have put the stream type descriptions on the same page as the color codes. I guess I will have to do it myself.

[This message has been edited by Steve (edited 03-28-2000).]

[toto]

Yeah Steve I thought of the same thing. I also it would be handy if they would put special regulations on the pages that each river can be found on. I think I explained that well. It would make it much easier than to have 2 or 3 books to figure out where, when, and how you can fish a certain stream or river. Don't you think?

[SILVER STREAKER]

I think "flies only" is a bunch of crap. Where are the "spinners only" and worms only sections?

[Steve]

Well, Silver I think they are at the limit of the number of miles that can be under special restrictions which I think is 100. That is a very small portion of the number of miles of streams and rivers in MI. I can't see any garden hackle fisherman being upset about someone fishing with flies next to him as he should have the advantage anyway. Please don't get me wrong, I am in no way against using bait for trout/salmon and do it myself from time to time, depending on the situation etc. It is without a doubt, I think the best way to get started in trout fishing as you learn to read the water based on catching fish with the bait in holes, runs, etc. Sometimes, I just don't want to deal with bait, ie keeping nightcrawlers cold etc. and think that in this respect flies are actually easier to deal with on an extended fishing trip.

[SILVER STREAKER]

Thanks for the response Steve, I just don't want to see the flyfishing "elitists" get their claws in any more of our water. I know that they are not satisfied with the 100 miles they currently have.

[WEEZER]

Hey Silver Streaker! I used to feel the same way until I picked up a fly rod and some parachute adams.
I'd like to see more no kill areas, open to just flies and spinners. (I would be more supportive of worms but half of the fish hooked on worms end up dead due to getting deep hooked.)
BTW how do you define "elitists"? I have heard this term thrown around for years and nobody that throws it around can give me a definition.
Thanks~Rick

[mtorzews]

My thought is special regulation water should be open to lures and flies but no bait, and should be no kill. Limiting the method of catching a trout is good because fish caught on bait are often deep hooked and don't survive being released. Lures and flies catch fish in the lip which results in a high survival rate. I can't afford a fly rod, so until then I'll be tying a clear bobber and fly to my spinning rod so that I can fish these regulated waters. Happy Fishin!

[SILVER STREAKER]

Weezer~ I would be reluctant to support any more "artificial only" sections because I enjoy drifting spawn for steelhead. I've never had an occasion where a steelhead has been too deeply hooked with spawn. I don't see much difference between between a double fly-chuck and duck rig and spawn ~ why should spawn not be allowed?
BTW an elitist the guy who won't acknowledge the spinfisherman as they pass on the river bank because he feels they are not at his level.

[WEEZER]

Ok I see your point I have no problem with people using spawn! In fact I'd say that 40-50% of the flyrodders on the river have a little jar of spawn stashed away in their vest "Just in case". I know that I do when the fishing is tough!(I don't currently fish the Flies only section of the Pm).
Yes you are right spawn doesn't usually hook fish deep! But crawlers and other live bait does.
Your point about getting the cold shoulder from fly anglers is dead on(In most cases). I fish with spinning rods just as much as fly equipment and when I pass some fly rodders with my spin gear they don't want to acknowledge my presence! This is plain BS!! But there are just as many snob spin fishers that do the same thing. Most steelheader don't really like talking on the river. I am one of these guys, It doesn't matter what type of rod I'm holding!!

[Steve]

I agree with WEEZER that amoung the strictly fly fishing anglers, there are some who do have a "look down the nose" attitude. This is very wrong. It is the same with hunters who don't bait looking down on those who do or bowhunters looking down at rifle hunters..... We must stay united by our love of the outdoors and keep everything else secondary.

[classicrod]

Silver, It seems easy for you to label all fly fishermen as elitist. That is no more true than to say that all spin fishermen are saints. Neither is true,a jerk is a jerk no matter what kind of rod he fishes with. Unfortunately you by your own actions seem to prove that very point.

Tight Lines
Ron

[badcast]

Weezer & Silver Streaker~ Do you guys get that cold shoulder on waters other fly only? I'm guilty of it when I'm on fly only water but not elsewhere. Bought my first flyrod by having to bale hay all one summer to afford it; about 40 years ago. (Ouch, it hurts to even admit that). I've fishied with almost all kinds of gear, but when I get on flies only water its kind of special to me. When I see guys using spinning gear with flies (and questionable flies) the old flyfisher in me says that traditional gear of the sport has to account for something. So, yes, I may give that cold shoulder. ON other waters, though, no way. I always show respect initially. What I find more and more in the waters these days (among both fly and non fly fishers) is a breed that seems to respect nothing. May be society in general, may be the crowding of the waters. But when you're in a hole and obviously fishing, too many folks these days just jump in, fish up to you, never say a word, and jut out their chin. Makes my neck hairs rise. Sorry for rambling, just my 2 cents.

[WEEZER]

It happens everywhere! It's not right and I don't predict it disapearing any time soon.
Here's the kicker the same guys that are giving the cold shoulder on the flies only sections are mostly chuck and duck right? That's basically spin fishing witha different reel. Yes you are right there seems to be a few more "Questionable" flies on the end of a spinning rods :(

[mtorzews]

What do you guys mean by "questionable flies"? If I tie a fly to my spinning rod its a fly. If I tie a lure or spinner, its a lure or spinner. I don't see what you mean by questionable. As far as looking down on guys using spinning rods for flies I don't believe its fair. I would be willing to bet most of us fishing that way would love to have the traditional equipment, but finances don't allow it. Its difficult to afford the $20 or $30 I'm going to spend today on a fishing license no less a $150 - $200 starters fly rod. So should I not be allowed to touch the pristine fly only water (or be worthy enough to talk too even if I am using flies) because I can't afford the right equipment? Oh well enough ranting. Does the Huron River open for trout tomorrow? If it does I'll see you there with my spinning rod and flies!

[Steve]

I've used a spinning rod with a fly reel when I've forgotten my fly rod or I'm fishing in some very tight places. Don't see anything wrong with it at all. Flies don't cast quite as nice but it got the job done. See ya on the river mtorzews.

[classicrod]

Guys come on, if your spin fishing simply tying a fly to the end of your line doesn't make you a fly fisherman. You may be fishing with a fly but your not flyfishing and while I'm up on the soap box IMHO if your' chuckin and duckin even though your using fly equipment, thats not "fly fishing" either. I don't mean to say that either style is wrong or bad, they just are not fly fishing.I think Weezer has a good handle on the differance between the two and it is obvious that he enjoys both.
Mtorzews- I know how it is when you are first starting out, money for new equipment can be hard to come by, but you might be able to get started for less than you think. Cabela's Three Forks Combos which include rod, reel, WF fly line and 100yds. of backing are only $59.99. On other fly fishing boards they get high marks as a great starter set. If you are anything like I was once you give fly fishing a try you will be hooked for life.

Tight Lines
Ron

[badcast]

Classicrod I have to say that I agree with you. Chuck-n-duck in no way compares with FLY CASTING. Call it all, traditional, spin gear, C&D fly FISHING if we must, it isn't fly casting. I always try the traditional streamers when I get to the river for Steel and Salmon, and usually don't have the success of others. But there are those times when the fish are agressive and try to rip the rod from your hands. Love it when that happens. That's not to say that C&D are below me, though. I'll switch before I go fishless. Guess that's why I like stripping streamers for browns so much. There's almost always one that will oblige you.

[classicrod]

Badcast- While dry fly fishing to a active hatch is my first love, striping streamer for browns is a close second.One of the reasons I like it so much is that it is almost as visual as dry fly fishing.Its not unusual to see the fish chase the streamer for quite aways be for hitting it.It sure gets the old heart pumpin. My best brown last year came streamer fishing on the South Branch of the Au Sable River(Mason Tract) He chased My Zoo Cougar almost eight feet before he nailed it. He was 22" long and had a big hooked jaw. Whew!!! what a nice fish. I sure would like to catch him again this year.

Tight Lines
Ron

[toto]

As long as it is legal fishing, I really don't care what style you use. Some of us were born and raised on spin fishing, while others have been with fly rod in hand on their lives. I would bet that if I were to ask weezer if he wanted to go fishing, he wouldn't be upset if I were using spin equipment. Its the enjoyment of being outdoors to relax, and pursue fish that is important. I least I hope thats what it is.

[WEEZER]

I think we have the "Questionable" fly term mixed up! I'm not talking about flies on the end of a spin rod I'm talking about a stand of yarn tied to a heavt lead-head jig or a big ole trevle hook!! I'm sure there are a few of these rigs tied to fly equipment, just not as many.
catching fish with the chuck and duck is still a little more challenging than with spin gear!
I agree that it isn't a true form of flyfishing. I would like to use more indicator rigging and I will in time!! but for now I have to start at the easy end!( I have only been fishing steelhead/Salmon with fly rod for 2 seasons!!).
~RIck
BTW most fly rods are expensive because they carry an unconditionable lifetime warranty.

[badcast]

Classicrod: Should your profile read "Midland" MI? And, would I have met up with you on the PM last weekend maybe? Maybe not, but you sound like a man after my own heart. Come November I love to fish just as you describe. The rivers are nearly bare of fishers and the browns are really agressive. I compare it to hopper fishing. Bang that streamer up against the cover and strip/swing 'er in. What a rush!

My reference to questionable flies is exactly as Weezer described. I, PERSONNALLY, would like to the rules toughened up on that, but I realize that others rely on the tactic to catch fish. Especially in "flies only" waters. Otherwise, fish as you see fit. Tactics are a matter of personal choice and if I don't like how you're fishing I can move along. I hope the new regs on the PM cut down on some behaviors, though. I was late season trout fishing last year during the early salmon run and the campers in the Whirlpool just sickened me. "Hey, bang on your canoe on the way through" Everytime someone would accommodate them, there'd be a rash of "hits". I portaged around. Thought I was going to get in a fight over it. "What's da madder, you too good to flote true?" Enough rambling. Enjoy, I hear the fish are hitting somewhere.

[Steve]

Hey can you guys define exactly what you mean by a questionable fly?

[WEEZER]

I talked to a CO friend of mine. He said that there have been a lot of confusion on the subject and that they are going to take it easy for a couple of weeks(as to handing out tickets). A lot of shops are running out of the new regulations that's the main problem.
Any way read those regs. carefully and you'll be alright. I have already seen at least two violations since Saturday morning!
(Both were on a newly restricted stream.)
~RIck

[classicrod]

Your right Badcast my profile should say Midland. (Hey Steve how do I change it) No it wasn't me you met on the P.M. last week I only fished there once last year. I fish the Au Sable and the Manistee most of the time.
It does seem like we have alot in common we do share the same philosophy when it comes to fly fishing.

Tight Lines
Ron

[Lance]

Not being a fly-fisher I am wondering what the "chuck and duck" method is? Think I will be trying the fly thing this summer though, found an old H-I automatic flyreel in my grandfather's stuff.
By the way you guys keep fighting over river space...keeps you of my lake. :> )

[Steve]

I like those old automatic reels. I bought an old one from EBAY a while back. Its a great concept of no winding, but I haven't actually tried it on the water yet.