White Moose

[WhiteMoose]

Hey all.... wandering what kind of response other hunters would get from pic's like these.



http://whitemoose.ca/pics/whitemoosefamily.jpg



http://whitemoose.ca/pics/WM1.jpg



http://whitemoose.ca/pics/WM3.jpg



http://whitemoose.ca/pics/WM6.jpg



http://whitemoose.ca/pics/mooseinbush.jpg

They're just like the kermode bears of BC .. white, but not albino ... many people are arguing that they should be protected to build up their numbers and then a regulated hunt can be opened up .... i'm in favor ...

Joel

your thoughts ...

[Gobblerman]

I've never seen a white moose before? How big of a population do they have? Personally I like the traditional looking moose and would rather take one of them. Thanks for sharing the pictures.

[WhiteMoose]

There are 4 to 5 in my area ... across canada, i've been able to document less than a dozen, but there's likely a couple more ... I think it would be pretty cool to build up the herd to a point where the govt. could open up a season specifically for white moose ... Until then, i'd like to see them protected ...

Joel

[Lucky Dog]

Why would you want to protect and propagate animals that have a genetic defect ? I think white moose and albino deer should both be removed from the herd.

[Rondevous]

On the surface protecting anything that has few numbers seems inviting.

Tourism dollars can be generated by the protected species as discussed in the website.
If the people in the areas where these moose are found feel it is a good idea then let them say so, but I have a few "what if" questions.
What if they "white moose" become the dominate color and those people who rely on food are forced to shoot only brown moose, would their chances at harvest a moose for food become a burden?
What if you had a White moose tag? In order to control them and not offering full protection?
What impact would this have on Native Americans and hunting? Would they be able to still harvest no matter what the MDR says?
Would the laws only pertain to Non Native citizens?

The white moose may be a great poster child for consevation but the real focus needs to be on the overall conservation of North Americans resources.

It would make no differance to me personally if I could'nt shoot a white moose.

Regards,
Kirk Howes

[WhiteMoose]

Good points Kirk ... let me try to respond to your satisfaction ...

"What if they white moose become the dominate color and those people who rely on food are forced to shoot only brown moose, would their chances at harvest a moose for food become a burden?"
- If white became the dominint color phase for moose in N. Ontario it would mean 1 of 2 things .
1- There are lots of white moose and so they are at a point where it is responsible to harvest them ... OR
2- The brown moose population is so depleted that the remaining few moose are white, because they had better hunting protection ...

But all and all, neither of these alternatives seems plausible in the near future given that my crew is only advocating protecting 5 white moose out of a herd of 100,000 ...

"What if you had a White moose tag? In order to control them and not offering full protection?"
- I think its a great idea ... When there are enough animals that they can be harvested without jeapordizing the sustainability of the strain, they should be hunted. Furthermore, a tag specifically for white moose would be great in that the government could actually control the hunt, unlike the current situation ...

"What impact would this have on Native Americans and hunting?"
- The native groups in my area believe these animals are sacred. They wouldn't be hunted by the aboriginals ...

"Would they be able to still harvest no matter what the MDR says?"
MNR in Ontario ... maybe depending on how the animals were classified. Aboriginal hunting rights may, and are, curtailed in the interest of conservation ...

" Would the laws only pertain to Non Native citizens?"
- Given the restricted numbers of these animals, the laws would likely apply to all. Treaty rights would seemingly not be able to trump conservation at this point because of the small number of animals left from this strain ...

"The white moose may be a great poster child for consevation but the real focus needs to be on the overall conservation of North Americans resources."
- Agreed ... but people don't get fired up so easily about the truly important issues like spraying herbicides in public forests, dumping heavy metal water from mines into riverways, or clear cutting mixed aged forests in the interest of saving the multi-national forestry companies a couple bucks ... Completely agree that the white moose issue is just one of many environmental issues facing N.America ... I think you got it right on your post on WhiteMoose.Ca that its time for the leaders of the countries to step up to the plate (and focus less on campaign contributions) ...

"It would make no differance to me personally if I could'nt shoot a white moose."
- Not what we're pushing for ... I'd like everyone to have the chance to shoot a white moose ... I'd like to see a regulated hunt for these animals once they've had a chance to flourish ... I view the situation as putting money into the bank to watch it grow, and collecting the interest once the bank account is large enough ... the interest is the number of animals which could annually be harvested without destroying the principle (herd) ...

Joel

[MI newguy]

We had 4 white deer up in our area. A hunter from Indian River shot an 8 point, man did he get a lot of hassle from the community. I myself, if it was a legal deer would take one if I had the chance.

[yippy]

Looks like they got the idea from snowshoes. They just have to figure out how to turn back.

I saw someone call this a genetic defect. I would call it that if they were in an area with no snow. In this case I would call it a genetic blessing. I would think that the wolves would hit the moose herd hardest in the winter. I would want some cammo too!

[WhiteMoose]

If its true that wolves hunt with their noses more than their eyes (and I believe it) then these white moose would fare no worse than brown moose in the summer and have a distinct advantage in the winter ... Wolves have no choice but to hunt with their eyes in the winter because the temperature drops scent molecules, and makes tracking by scent near impossible ...

Joel

[bigmike]

very cool pics. Thanks for sharing. I would love to have one of those;)

[WhiteMoose]

From: Joel T. (joel@whitemoose.ca)
To: bob.johnston@mnr.gov.on.ca (bob.johnston@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; Gerry.Weber@mczcr.gov.on.ca (Gerry.Weber@mczcr.gov.on.ca) ; James.Antler@mczcr.gov.on.ca (James.Antler@mczcr.gov.on.ca) ; sbridge@nrcan.gc.ca (sbridge@nrcan.gc.ca) ; chuck.orton@mnr.gov.on.ca (chuck.orton@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; bill.guthrie@mnr.gov.on.ca (bill.guthrie@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; wayne.fiset@mnr.gov.on.ca (wayne.fiset@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; wolfgang_haider@sfu.ca (wolfgang_haider@sfu.ca) ; Dave.Harnish@mnr.gov.on.ca (Dave.Harnish@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; ron.reffle@mnr.gov.on.ca (ron.reffle@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; minister@mnr.gov.on.ca (minister@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; erik.wainio@mnr.gov.on.ca (erik.wainio@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; Rob.Galloway@mnr.gov.on.ca (Rob.Galloway@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; frank.miklas@mnr.gov.on.ca (frank.miklas@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; colin.higgins@mnr.gov.on.ca (colin.higgins@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; lorraine.norris@mnr.gov.on.ca (lorraine.norris@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; jeff.wiltshire@mnr.gov.on.ca (jeff.wiltshire@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; michael.gatt@mnr.gov.on.ca (michael.gatt@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; brian.pountney@ndm.gov.on.ca (brian.pountney@ndm.gov.on.ca) ; aaron.hoffe@ndm.gov.on.ca (aaron.hoffe@ndm.gov.on.ca) ; graham.campbell@ndm.gov.on.ca (graham.campbell@ndm.gov.on.ca) ; Info@noto.net (Info@noto.net) ; laurie@noto.net (laurie@noto.net) ; madforest@nrtco.net (madforest@nrtco.net) ; doug@noto.net (doug@noto.net) ; Todd@noto.net (Todd@noto.net) ; Jimgrayston@hotmail.com (Jimgrayston@hotmail.com) ; al@wildernessisland.com (al@wildernessisland.com) ; info@pinegroveresort.com (info@pinegroveresort.com) ; abgarson13@yahoo.com (abgarson13@yahoo.com) ; sudaviat@vianet.on.ca (sudaviat@vianet.on.ca) ; lostlake@ntl.sympatico.ca (lostlake@ntl.sympatico.ca) ; john@sydneylake.com (john@sydneylake.com) ; corky@wisc.edu (corky@wisc.edu) ; islandlake@remotesat.com (islandlake@remotesat.com) ; fish@bownarrows.com (fish@bownarrows.com) ; enid@vikingoutpost.com (enid@vikingoutpost.com) ; info@nwota.com (info@nwota.com) ; Jerry_Ouelletteco@ontla.ola.org (Jerry_Ouelletteco@ontla.ola.org) ; Grassy@wi.net (Grassy@wi.net) ; rick.groves@tembec.com (rick.groves@tembec.com) ; Tom.Croswell@tembec.com (Tom.Croswell@tembec.com) ; chris.mcdonell@tembec.com (chris.mcdonell@tembec.com) ; bill.thornton@mnr.gov.on.ca (bill.thornton@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; Dianne.Corbett@mnr.gov.on.ca (Dianne.Corbett@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; peter.boxall@ualberta.ca (peter.boxall@ualberta.ca) ; len.hunt@mnr.gov.on.ca (len.hunt@mnr.gov.on.ca) ; panda@wwfcanada.org (panda@wwfcanada.org) ; information@sierraclub.org (information@sierraclub.org) ; Ruth Edwards (ruth.edwards@sympatico.ca) ; jocelyner@sierraclub.ca (jocelyner@sierraclub.ca) ; images@cnn.com (images@cnn.com)
Cc: Joel T. (joel@whitemoose.ca)
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:50 PM
Subject: White Moose - Recent News & Pic's...


Mr. Bob Johnston,

I would like to begin by stating that I've been highly impressed by the efforts of your staff and yourself to help me establish a walleye hatchery on Nemegosenda lake. It is my sincere hope that your team will perform with the same excellence in regards to the white moose projects. Fortunately for your team, the first task requested by my group will require little "work" other than a pen stroke with your signature. The document should indicate that as the individual with express authority from the Minister of Natural Resources to protect the White Moose in WMU 30 and 31, you authorize removal of moose (which are more than 50% white)

from the hunting roster for 2005.



You had indicated that such an act would require consultation with a team of biologists and no protection could be afforded without determining these animals to be a new species. However, this requirement was not needed to afford protection to the kermode (spirit) bears of BC. Nor was it needed to protect white moose in such jurisdictions as Alaska or Labrador. The apparent view of those responsible for implementing hunting regulations in these areas (and others) is that such rare animals are more valuable to the public alive, as the best viewing and photography opportunities come to an abrupt halt if the animal perishes. I, and thousands of others, see no valid reason why the same type of legislation would not be enacted to help protect these extremely rare animals. In fact, Resolution 05-66 was passed by City of Timmins on March 7, 2005 to formally request of the Minister of Natural Resources to regulate the hunting of White Moose and afford them a protected status as a unique symbol of Northern Ontario.

I should note that by no means am I asking for a permanent removal of moose, which are more than 50% white, from the hunting roster in Ontario. When the Armstrong strain of white moose is no longer such a rarity, the hunt should be re-opened and regulated. There should be permits issued specifically for White Moose. I'm proposing that Ontario begin to finally make use of its resources to their fullest potential and place these animals under tempory protection, similar to putting money in a bank to allow it to grow.

My research has indicated that no such legislation has been enacted because the MNR would prefer these animals removed from the general population, seemingly out of fear that they will spread faulty genes to the general herd. Personally, I don't think that evolution has simply stopped because humans have become so technologically advanced. These genes may actually be a blessing. A white moose would seem to have a distinct advantage over a brown moose during the winter months. Furthermore, if it is true that wolves hunt with their noses in the summer, white moose would seem to suffer no great disadvantage to brown moose. More interestingly, this strain appears to have an odd variation involving grey guard hairs (even on the calves) which i've not seen on other strains of white moose. Is it really that far fetched that this strain may have the genetic ability (with a little luck) to produce moose which can molt from brown to white seasonally, similar to a snow shoe rabbit? Due to the uniqueness of these animals, it would seem that the best way to protect them is a live capture and relocation into a large, mixed composition, fenced in, park. Given the fact that trains, automobiles, natural hazards (like falling through the ice), and natural predators are factors beyond our control, a fence is seemingly a temporary necessity.

If it is the case that these animals are merely genetic defects as the MNR apparently believes to be the case, separation from the herd would seem to be the most sensible solution. However, given the immense value in terms of creation and diversification of employment opportunities that could be created by these animals (in an area largely devoid of industry), a live capture and relocation into a large fenced in, mixed habitat, park would seem to be the most logical solution. Interestingly, both of our opinions lead to the same conclusion regarding the best course of action.


So, the second request that I am making of you is that you have your staff start the paper work process (which I and others will gladly assist) to issue the permits for a live capture and relocation of the White Moose in WMU 30 and WMU 31. Ordinarily, I would believe that only the Minister of Natural Resources would be capable to authorize such a live capture, but given my reciept of a recent letter from the Honorable David Ramsay (the current Minister of Natural Resources), it would seem that this authority has been delegated to your person. I will be providing more details very shortly regarding the proposed transfer location for captured white moose.

Thank you for your time and I am eager to continue working with you for the betterment of Northern Ontario.

Sincerely yours,

Joel Theriault

[Sprytle]

Hey MI newguy, might want to leave that one alone!! About the white deer up in your area. :evil: :evil: - Bob

[MI newguy]

I see thier is something funny whith that subject. Thanks