Guides in Michigan

[Old Hunter]

Guided hunts in Michigan? Should guides be Licensed by the State for ALL guide services rendered for pay.??????

[crittergetter]

Wouldn't you want some course of retribution if the guide fails to provide what they claim? What if you feel that you were ripped off? I bet a guide would be more willing to provide a refund if someone threatened his license, rather than just joe client saying he wasn't happy and wants his money back. I've heard of a couple canadian fishing guides that won't do jack once you're there. Claim that they have building repairs to make or other things to do rather than take you out, or just point you in a general direction and say fish near here. Wouldn't you feel ripped off? Just my opinion, but feel that if you're going to take someone's money, you should be recognized by some licensing agency.

[jk hillsdale]

Guided hunts in Michigan? Should guides be Licensed by the State for ALL guide services rendered for pay.??????

No.

[Thunderhead]

Here's an easy solution.

Learn how to do it yourself.

Problem solved.

[Kevin Smith]

I see your point about using licensing as leverage....but it has downfalls and hassles too I think. It might make problems for guys hunting/fishing together. Say you had a boat and took a buddy fishing....he bought breakfast, or the beer, or money for gas....technically now you are in violation of a guide law?
I don't think guiding in MI is big enough to be a state regulated industry.
Yep - it allows for a lot of shoddy outfits, but reputations can spread quickly.

[Worm Dunker]

You have to to have a licence to be an auto mechcanic, how many times have you had your car repaired and it wasn't right. All a licence will due is drive the cost of the hunt up. If a guide has a licence doesn't mean he knows what he doing. I want a guide that has insurane and know what he's doing not somebody who studied a test for the State of Mi.

[Old Hunter]

Thunderhead, I have been hunting for over 60 years here in Michigan and out West. If I needed a guide for what I'm hunting I would quit hunting. I hunt ducks, geese , deer and turkey all with great success because I do my home work spending alot of time scouting and learning the areas I hunt. When turkey season starts I'll be 75 years of age and will get my Tom, as I have in past years. :confused: :confused:

[drev]

Guided hunts in Michigan? Should guides be Licensed by the State for ALL guide services rendered for pay.??????

yes

The ones that are legit will have no problem meeting the requirments

[crittergetter]

I agree with Drev, and that was my line of thinking when I posted my reply. The shady ones won't want to deal with licensing, and therefore wouldn't apply for one. I also agree the having a license, wouldn't necessarily make you a good guide, but also mentioned, was reputation. You can damn well bet that if I'm going to make my living off from guiding, I'm going to make sure I"m a good one! As far as sharing cost between friends...bit of a stretch don't ya think? or is the law that vague that any exchange of monies is deemed guiding? If so it needs to be re-written!

[Thunderhead]

Thunderhead, I have been hunting for over 60 years here in Michigan and out West. If I needed a guide for what I'm hunting I would quit hunting. I hunt ducks, geese , deer and turkey all with great success because I do my home work spending alot of time scouting and learning the areas I hunt. When turkey season starts I'll be 75 years of age and will get my Tom, as I have in past years. :confused: :confused:

Good for you ! :)
I wish you many more ! Good Luck this season.

Alot of other people don't want to put in the time and effort it takes to do it on their own.
That's where I come in.
I work in the hunting industry as a professional Turkey Caller and instructor and guide on the side.

The first warning flag that should go up when hiring a guide is a " guarantee", there are none in hunting, at least with me.
All I'll guarantee is that I'll do my best.

I shop for customers as much as they shop for me.

I will not take someone that looks to be a run of the mill pain in the ass.
There's always someone out to get something for nothing. The one where nothing is good enough or the ones that have every intention to complain until they get what they want for free. This is usually pre meditated.
Seen it before. Not often enough to be a concern, but it does happen.

[Bmac]

Yes! Don't Charter boats have to be licensed to "guide" a fishing trip? Why should a hunting guide be any different? It might cut down on the idiots guiding and screwing up land access for all of us. In the past few years I have been told countless times by landowners that they no longer allowed anyone on their property due to hassles with some of the local waterfowl "guide services".

[Thunderhead]

Maybe I'll just pull my ad and rely on word of mouth like I normaly do.

All the guides that I know are good fellas. I seriously doubt that " rabid guides" run rampant in Michigan.

I find more and more that if there's something to bitch about around here that most guys hop on the wagon wether it pertains to them or not, it's just somethig to do.

[Bmac]

Thunderhead...I guess I find it tiring that someone can't have an opinion around here without others saying they are complaining just to complain. :rolleyes: :rant:

As for you being a guide, I have heard nothing but good things. If you are running a legitimate business, as I'm sure you are, wouldn't you want to know your competition was also legit? Personally, I guide with my dogs on different bird preserves, which also must be licensed. If it were required, I would have no problem if I had to get a license individually.

In terms of "rabid guides running rampant", all it takes is a couple of bad ones in an area to screw it up. This has happened in our area for waterfowl, mainly geese. If you haven't been affected by it yet, you are lucky.

[7MM Magnum]

.

Alot of other people don't want to put in the time and effort it takes to do it on their own.
That's where I come in.
I work in the hunting industry as a professional Turkey Caller and instructor and guide on the side.


Hmmmmm,.. Isn't putting the time and effort in the field what makes the word hunting,.. hunting?? :16suspect

I might be able to understand a "Guide" being needed as some states make it mandatory for non-residents to have one. But all in all,... hunting to me requires your part of doing the homework in the field. It's an important part of making "Hunting" just that.

I'm going on an out of state hunt this October for Elk and I have no guide for it. The homework part is intensive for me as I can't just drive out there day to day to look around so I spend many hours on the web geting as much information as I possibly can regarding the hunt area. Weather conditions, topo's that I pour hours over, I've also been in contact with the state's F&G department for information on sightings, logging activity, clear cuts & select cut areas, forestry burn areas for sections providing new fresh growth for browse. Sure it's a bunch of work and time,... but in the long run it will prove to be a rewarding and enjoyable time out in the field for me for those 10 days out there.

Don't get me wrong here,.. a guided hunt is I'm sure enjoyable to many people,.. and I'm not trying to downgrade them. I just personally feel that hunting is MORE enjoyable and rewarding knowing that you personally took the effort in planning, scouting, tracking, setting-up an area,... ALL the preliminaries in makeing your harvest 100% yours.

[jk hillsdale]

To me, I would hire a guide because I'm inexperienced as a turkey hunter, and I believe in learning from individuals that have excellent skills. Similar to the fact that if I were to start golfing, I'd take lessons from a pro, rather than go out and hack my way around the course. Hunting is like anything else, there is a select group of individuals who are much more skilled than the masses. Being able to learn from highly skilled hunters greatly shortens the learning curve. There are those of us that readily acknowledge that we're not experts at everything, and thus are willing to learn from others, even to the point of paying them money in exchange for the opportunity to learn.

[Thunderhead]

My ad will be pulled by the end of the day. After reading all the negative comments on different threads regarding
" licencing, and my advertising, and the pay to play mentality" I don't feel I need to defend myself or justify my makin a few lousy extra bucks helping another hunter.

Good Luck to all this spring. :)

[nymph]

Thunderhead,

I don't know you or that much about you, aside from what I've read in your many posts on this site. With that said, I sure hope you don't slowly begin to whither away from here. You bring many good views and opinions to the table on a variety of issues and topics. While I may or may not agree with you on all these issues, I surely believe that I consistantly gain new knowledge from the threads that you've participated in. As for guiding, all that you can do is be a man of your word and do the best that you can for your client. There are more ***hole general public smoe's in the woods than there are ***hole guides. Perhaps if some of these folks went on guided hunts, they would learn a bit more about preservation, conservation and the practices of good sportsmanship.

As for regulating / licensing guide services in Michigan, I would have to say no. The state already has their hands in enough pockets and that's about all that they would be doing if put in charge of Michigan guide licensing. The "Word-of-Mouth" factor already takes care of the smucks.

just my .02


nymph

[Trophy Specialist]

I own/operate a charter boat which requires an expensive license from the state of Michigan along with a federal captains license. I also run a taxidermy business which also requires a fee to the state. Most other businesses in Michigan do not require any special licensing. Why are business that run under the umbrella of the DNR taxed extra? I sure don't get anything extra from the DNR in return for the extra money I pay them. I don't support licensing of hunting guides in Michigan just as I am against the licensing of charter boats and taxidermists in Michigan as well.

[wyle_e_coyote]

A license will do nothing but but supply more money to the State, which may be good or bad depending how it is used.
There is nothing saying that a licensed guide has to be any good.
I myself have been on a few guide hunts and so far so good..knock on wood.
If I draw another bear tag for the UP, I will hire a guide, again. I live 6-8 hours drive from the UP, and I would not be able to maintain a bait the way you should to be sucsesful. The cost to keep baits maintained would surpass that of a guide. Not only that ,but I have found that I enjoy hound hunting and I sure as he** don't have any place, or time to raise bear hounds. :lol:
If I draw an elk tag I will be hiring a guide, for the same travel problems. If I lived around elk country I would scout for myself, but I don't , and i could easly spend $1000 in gas, food and lodging to scout up that way. Then there is the time away form work and family that I would have to have.
A few friends and I have been thinking of Walleye fishing on Saginaw Bay.. we are avide fisherman, but Figure the cost of gas to pull a boat all the way there and then fill the boat up to fish all weekend. Then we would have to find the fish on a lake we never fished. We can hire a guide for a 6 hour trip at $100 or less per person....duhh.
There are a million good reasons to hire a guide, and no one should feel less of a sportsman for hiring one !!!

With all that being said, I see no reason for you to loose your temper like that Thunderhead.
I have read allot of your post and have great respect for you, but pulling your sponsership becuase some people voice opinions that conflict with yours is kind of silly. No one was launching a personal attack on you. Unless there were behind the scenes (PMs) that offend you or attacked you then I see no reason to get so upset. I only seen one person question you directly on this site about advertising, and they had only like 10 post here and had no right to question your ad. I also read were they were "set straight" by a Mod and I think it was very well done. So please do not stop posting and/or advertising.
You are probably booked by now anyways.. ;)

[Dawg]

As for regulating / licensing guide services in Michigan, I would have to say no. The state already has their hands in enough pockets and that's about all that they would be doing if put in charge of Michigan guide licensing. The "Word-of-Mouth" factor already takes care of the smucks.
:yeahthat:

Most other businesses in Michigan do not require any special licensing. Why are business that run under the umbrella of the DNR taxed extra? I sure don't get anything extra from the DNR in return for the extra money I pay them.
:yeahthat:

Sorry to make an example of builders/contractors but they are required to have a license and there are plenty of crappy ones. Passing a test is a formality and I'd end up doing my homework either way.

[dyemen]

I own/operate a charter boat which requires an expensive license from the state of Michigan along with a federal captains license. I also run a taxidermy business which also requires a fee to the state. Most other businesses in Michigan do not require any special licensing. Why are business that run under the umbrella of the DNR taxed extra? I sure don't get anything extra from the DNR in return for the extra money I pay them. I don't support licensing of hunting guides in Michigan just as I am against the licensing of charter boats and taxidermists in Michigan as well.


Mechanics...beauticians....etc... etc... we all have to be licensed/tested to practice our proffesion!!! Mainly so the state can regulate/oversee/generate funds! But also for consumer protection! I think being knowledgable of the water and how boats run etc is most important!!! Just because you own a boat does not make you a "charter" captain....I think that is was the state is trying to mandate! ....

[Trophy Specialist]

Mechanics...beauticians....etc... etc... we all have to be licensed/tested to practice our proffesion!!! Mainly so the state can regulate/oversee/generate funds! But also for consumer protection! I think being knowledgable of the water and how boats run etc is most important!!! Just because you own a boat does not make you a "charter" captain....I think that is was the state is trying to mandate! ....
The state licensing that I'm referring to for fishing charters and taxidermists has nothing to do with competency. The state does not test us in any way. With charters, most states that charge captains a fee to operate at least give them something for their money; usually includes licensing for their customers. In Michigan however, I have to pay a huge semi-annual fee along with purchasing an annual license and we get nothing in return for it except grief during inspections. Fore example, one CO required me to install a blower on my outboard powered boat because he thought it was necessary. All other states that I know of rely on the Coast Guard regulations to govern charter boats. Not in Michigan though. We have our DNR to make up their own set of rules. Also, most other states don't reqire the degree of licensing in other professions like Michigan does. Go down to Indiana and you don't have to have a license to be a contractor....beauticians....etc... etc... Do you think that Michigan has fewer unqualified businessmen because of all the red-tape and fees? No we just pay higher fees and taxes, which is one of the reasons why Michigan allways has one of the the highest unemployment rates in the country. :rant:

[swampbuck]

I recently spoke to the dnr about this topic.the fellow told me that they are working on some guidlines for guiding in michigan including requiring guides to have a land use permit. new rules should be coming soon.

personally I had my bear hunt ruined a couple years ago by a "guide" who crowded my baits I have spoken to 3 other people who had the same problem with the same "guide". I believe that he may be a member here.I have at least seen him mentioned here. I hope that the new rules are VERY STRICT

[mich buckmaster]

Tom,

Dont get too riled up about this. I have guided and I have seen some BAD guides also. Some that are violators just to get the kill, and the HORRIBLE guided goose guys in our area.

I think what you are doing isnt so much for the profit, but for the LOVE of turkey hunting. I also do the same thing.

I wouldnt stop the advertising for a few opinions!!

Just my 02

[TSS Caddis]

The state licensing that I'm referring to for fishing charters and taxidermists has nothing to do with competency.

No, but does the state have to employ someone to inspect your taxidermy shop? I know the Feds can stop by and shuffle through your migratory bird information, but I'm not sure if the state had anyone employed to keep an eye on taxidermists. If so they need to be paid, same goes with a charter.

[dyemen]

No, but does the state have to employ someone to inspect your taxidermy shop? I know the Feds can stop by and shuffle through your migratory bird information, but I'm not sure if the state had anyone employed to keep an eye on taxidermists. If so they need to be paid, same goes with a charter.


AND for that matter.....that license keeps a lot of wantabe's out of the trade!

[Gobblerman]

Hey Thunderhead,

You have passion for turkey hunting, do not let a few comments get under your skin. Some people like to learn from a guide, and that is fine. I agree with you that nothing is 100% guaranteed. Continue to teach others the sport that you are passionate about. I've never used a guide, however if I ever thought I needed one, I would not hesitate to call one.

Have a great season, it's been a long winter. Time to chase those longbeards.

[Dawg]

AND for that matter.....that license keeps a lot of wantabe's out of the trade!

If degrees/certification were required for a license then maybe, but $50? Tickets are issued every year to people not having a license.

[Trophy Specialist]

No, but does the state have to employ someone to inspect your taxidermy shop? I know the Feds can stop by and shuffle through your migratory bird information, but I'm not sure if the state had anyone employed to keep an eye on taxidermists. If so they need to be paid, same goes with a charter.
COs inspect taxidermists and charters, so they must take time out of their allready overburdened schedules to do those chores. COs are also doing inspections on game farms these days. With all those oddball types of duties, it's a wonder that our COs keep poachers at bay.

[Thunderhead]

I'd like to thank a long time member and good friend Polarbear for calling me and pretty much asking just what the hell crawled up my patoot.

This is no excuse for my being a little ornery.
Sorry if I came across as being a weenier.

I do my best for everyone that asks me for help in killing a Longbeard. The PMs, phone calls and the many shows I do every year. There's been times I'm wailing on a box or mouth call at 2 or 3 am giving lessons over the phone to a total stranger, more times than my wife cares to remember, that's for sure.
I also thought it'd be nice to have a calling class and seminar this spring to help out MS members in their hunting Turkeys which ballooned into a full blown event.
I didn't plan on this getting so large, and am delighted it appealed to so many, but , it's also alot of work and planning I added into an already insane schedule. I did work out a deal with Steve and got to do a little advertising, so I can't say I didn't benifit from the class, and for that I thank the Admin.

All this and I haven't been home to speak of in over a month, missing Valentines day and my Wife's Birthday for the first time in 18 years.

I guess when I saw the different posts saying that if a guide wasn't licenced you might get ripped off or what course of action does the consumer have if the guide didn't put out to their satisfaction, or, why am I advertising, or ya gotta pay to play in Michigan now or I'm licenced, why isn't everybody else. Etc..... I try to help anyone that asks and ask nothing in return, It just irked me. Hey, I'm human.

Ain't nothing guaranteed with my hunts folks.
Anybody that does offer one hunts behind a fence or should be questioned further. Until it is regulated, and it ain't gonna matter if it is, my advise is to ask for references, the successfull and unsuccessfull clients alike. Be wise and use common sense when spending your hard earned cash for anything, a guide or a used car. Your taking a chance on both, but there are certain measures you can take to reduce the chances of getting burned.

[NATTY BUMPO]

Tom,

You have given soooo much good advice and straight scoop to newbies on the Turkey Forum.... I cant even put a number on it. The calling class coming up is just another example of your contributions to M-S.com and fellow sportsmen. Thanks so much.

Looking forward to meeting you at the class and I'm bringing a newbie friend.
Take care.

Rod aka Natty B.

[Thunderhead]

I really appreciate your kind words, but there's no reason to thank me. I do what alot of other guys do on here, share what we know and love.
We're all Michigan Sportsman right?

We owe it to ourselves and to each other to pass on what we've learned and to share our experiences.

See ya at the Turkey shindig. :)

[deervision]

do your homework,get out in the field and scout.time in the woods puts meat in the freezer.put the tv control down and get outside.a good hunter scouts year round.

[Elk Guide]

Hi all.........just thought i would ad my two cents here......As some of you know i guide Elk hunters in the northern lower and have been doing it for 8 years now and 100 % successful.......As far as geting licensed i can tell you from talking to the Biologists in the elk area and Rod Clute i have been told nothing about having to have some kind of permit to use state land or any other land......I have suggested that we be licensed and have gave them the information from the wildlife division in wyoming and was told they will never license us as they dont want to deal with that now or in the future....If that happens then so be it i have no problem with it.....As for paying for a use permit if that happens that will drive up my cost to you the hunter....I give my best to get my hunters a nice animal and no i dont garuntee if i did again it would cost you more money......Lets take last season for example i gave a couple guys on here a quaote on a hunt with me ,i guess they decided that i wanted to much money so they wanted a better price so i gave that to them and they still went with someone else and still did not get the big bull they wanted ....I was cut down on here for guideing elk hunters because i charge well i charge a reasonable fee and if you dont have the time to do the leg work to find the elk then you need some one who does and that is me.......I have many satisfied costomers and will give out there # if some one that is going to go with me wants them ,,,thats no problem but i am tired of all you guys who cut us down for what you think we should do for free......I got into guiding here in michigan because i cant' seem to draw a tag it is my way of geting to hunt them and i also am helping out other guys or gals who get a chance to hunt.....i think that if someone like thunderhead is good at talking to turkeys and filling his tags and other hunters why not let him make a little extra cash ....for the money i spend looking for elk i sure as hell don't make any money at the end of the year .....or dont you think i deserve to recoop some of the money and time i put in to my guide service......any way i hope you all have a great year ......i think i have had just about enough of this site so i am thinking about droping out like a few others i have met on here 4yrs ago have all ready done.......take care bye

[Rondevous]

I think the guides I know in Michigan are great.
Elk Hunter has been here for a long time and has been very helpful to many.
It's a shame threads go south so much.
License the guides? NO
Tom I'll see you this spring and I know we'll have fun.