Are there cougars living and breeding in the wilds of Michigan?

[Trophy Specialist]

I ran a pole similar to this one last year and thought it might be interesting to see if any of the new evidence and the DNR’s change in cougar policy will change peoples minds. I know my mind was changed in the last year.

[Ferg]

glutten for punisment uh? Mike :lol: :lol: :yikes: :lol: :lol:


ferg....

[MI_Bowhunter]

Anyone who has viewed the video from monroe county along with the commentary provided would have to be a complete moron to think that those were house cats! Those were some big cats! As far as breeding population? I have no proof but with the various sightings I would have to say yes.

[Alibi]

I ran a pole similar to this one last year and thought it might be interesting to see if any of the new evidence and the DNR’s change in cougar policy will change peoples minds. I know my mind was changed in the last year.What is the DNR's change in cougar policy????

[Linda G.]

The DNR hasn't changed their cougar policy, because they don't have a cougar policy.

What changed was a comment made by the new Executive Director Becky Humphries, something to the effect that the DNR believes that some cougars are existing in Michigan. She said something to that effect at a gathering somewhere about a month ago, can't remember where. Or it may have been in the press release about the cougar hair sample, I can't remember.

To the MWC and their followers, this is an indication that they have won some sort of a battle, I guess. To me, it's an indication that the DNR is tired of being accused of "denying" the existence of cougars. Which they are.

It's all about political correctness, and an attempt by the DNR to improve their public appearance, and to get along better with the public, since many people do believe that cougars exist in Michigan.

It doesn't really matter how many people believe that cougars exist in Michigan or not...what matters is whether we have cougars...and so far, despite all the sightings, we have yet to come up with a cougar.

Whatever, it doesn't mean there's any sort of change in cougar policy, because the DNR doesn't have one for the management and future of cougars in Michigan.

[deerslayer#1]

There is only one way to come up with a cougar, hunt it! Seems like if the DNR had some sort of tracking season, one would be found. Tree it, dart it, there is your cougar!! There are lots of houndsmen in this state, that would probable love to run thier dogs. A two week period should come up with something if there are cougars in Michigan. Even if it had to be opened to out of state trackers. However it would probably be hard to make it happen since there are "no" Cougars in Michigan, so how could one be tracked?

[Huntsman27]

No ones come up with a specimen yet?

[deerslayer#1]

I believe they are here. I also believe if it was legal to turn one in, it would have been done a long time ago. If hunters had the opportunity to track, capture, hunt or whatever, it would happen in a short amount of time.

[swampbuck]

you say we still dont have a cougar. well what will convince you.we have multiple sightings by some fine outdoorsmen, we have video,we have photos,we have hair samples,we have track casts,we have the dnr director as well as many past and present dnr personel who say there are cougars.we have the mwc which is headed by a biologist with a phd from u. of m.(and I still would like to know how you can discredit them. the evidence they produced they put up for scrutiny by qualified people.do you really think that the scat samples were imported to michigan.and it seems that as many poeple have verified the videos as those who didnt.) what do you want a dead cougar,they are an endangered species you know!

answer me this, there are tens of thousands of bobcats in michigan,how many of those have you seen? now at that rate if there is say 50 cougers how many would you expect to see in a lifetime?

I believe the 5" plaster casts(of feline tracks) that we made last year. I have hunted for 30 years and I can identify the track of every wild animal in michigan. if someone can show me a bobcat with a 5" foot I will eat it and the plaster cast that we have

[Linda G.]

What I think, you think, and everyone on this board thinks is IMMATERIAL...what matters is that, legal or illegal, pet or wild, dead or alive, we haven't found any cougars!

So...what will it take....A COUGAR!!!

I do not need to see a cougar myself to believe they exist in the state of Michigan in the wild. I do need confirmation by a scientific agency, and we haven't got that. Like the DNR, the US Forest Service, the US Fish & Wildlife Service. I would also accept confirmation from a consensus of those who spend many hours out there in the wild, hunting coyotes, bobcats and bears with hounds, or that of a concensus of trappers. None of them, to my knowledge, have seen cougars in this state.

As for bobcats, I've seen about 10 in my lifetime, have killed two...they're real, believe me. Spend a little time in the north country, and sooner or later, you'll see one. Same for bears. You can hunt, and trap, bobcats...and people are doing so. They also get hit by cars.

There's lots of reports of tracks, and plaster casts of them, and scat, reportedly from all over the state. But so far, NONE of those have been accredited by a scientific agency, and that's not just the DNR, there's lots of other folks out there you can take your plaster casts to, including a number of biological departments at some of the most reputable universities in the country...like CMU, for one...none were ever proven, with creditable witnesses, as coming from somewhere in the state of Michigan, either.

I am not questioning you, everyone seems to take this personally. I believe you had what you believed was a cougar...but you were unable to prove it to the satisfaction of scientific authority, apparently. That's what you need to do...don't worry about the folks on this board, or public opinion, or outdoor writers-worry about substantiating your evidence in an accepted, scientific manner.

Nuff said, we never get anywhere on this...someone asked about Michigan's cougar policy, I tried to answer their question.

[woodsrat]

I do need confirmation by a scientific agency, and we haven't got that. Like the DNR, the US Forest Service, the US Fish & Wildlife Service.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm afraid science gets lost in the bureaucratic nightmare that we call big government. I'd rather have a different scientific agency deal with this issue. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. There are very skilled and qualified biologists working for all of the agencies listed above. However, when you mix science with government policies you get quasi-science. Science influenced by politics and fiscal issues IS NOT pure science.
:16suspect

[Linda G.]

....sigh... :dizzy:

Please note that I also suggested any one of a number of very reputable and well-respected universities with noted biological research departments, like CMU. There's also MSU and NMU, both well known in the biological research world.

There's also the tribes, several of which here in the state of Michigan have very reputable game agencies.

It doesn't matter who verifies it, but it has to be proven scientifically. So far, no one has.

[dyemen]

I thought I heard in the news a week or two that a car hit a cougar in the UP....no dead animal but took samples of hair and concluded that they were of a cougar? :help:

[swampbuck]

Linda, if a outdoorsman were to take the time and effort to go out and locate a cougar, what evidence would they need to collect to be accepted as credible.


would a photo or video be accepable if there was background scenery that could be compared?

would video of a trackline with casts and verifiable background be acceptable?

would dna evidence be acceptable if the collection was videotaped?

these are serious questions. I believe that someone here myself included could probably find evidence with considerable effort.

in my case the only things that would make such an undertaking worthwhile would be a kill tag. which is not possible or financial gain to compensate for the cost and time expended. if some one were to collect a verifiable photo,video or privately funded dna analysis and copyrighted that material before going public. would it have monetary value to an outdoor publication. if so what would be an educated guess to its value.

[1919-jimmmer]

A hunter in our camp saw one in '98’. He was in the middle of a swamp in northern Emmett County. We called the dnr and they reported other sighting in the area. IMO it is only a matter of time until we have undisputable proof.

Jimmmer

[Trophy Specialist]

would a photo or video be accepable if there was background scenery that could be compared?

would video of a trackline with casts and verifiable background be acceptable?

would dna evidence be acceptable if the collection was videotaped?

these are serious questions. I believe that someone here myself included could probably find evidence with considerable effort.
Even if several alive or dead cougar were found, some of the more pig-headed, cougar-in-Michigan-nay-sayers, would still not believe it. They'd rebute it by saying that someone planted them or some other such BS. For some people there will never be enough evidence to convince them.

[Linda G.]

You have it dead set against the DNR, science of any type, or anyone that wants confirmation of that type, which is accepted protocol, don't you? Why is that? Every thread you start on this site seems to question the DNR or any type of government agency, no matter what the subject, your latest being the increase in hunting and fishing fees.

I'll bet you just fell over sideways last spring when they found that wolverine, and everyone that's questioning the existence of cougars in this state ACCEPTED it, including me, didn't you?

If it is determined, through accepted scientific protocol, and you know darned good and well what that is, I shouldn't have to explain it to you, that cougars exist in this state in a wild, breeding population, I'd accept that, and so would everyone else that's questioned what we've seen so far.

But what we've seen so far isn't proof. There's been some indications, some hair on a car in the UP, and a whole lot of conjecture and wild claims, and that's it.

[BVW]

It surprises me to see all the people that are convinced there are cougers living and breeding in Southern Michigan. I think it must be that they think it will be exciting to have them here. I can't see any other reason for people to be so sure of something that has no evidence to prove. With the amount of evidence it realisticly should be easier to believe they are not here, but some people must just want the thrill of Cougers living in Michigan. I have a friend that knows nothing about nature and he is convinced they are here, does not know why or how, but he knows that they are here. :bash:
Just curious, Do the believers think that they have been here all along or migrated in? If they have been here all along why hasen't their population increased? How does one couger find another couger to breed with when there are not very many around? why are there not confimed cougers in Ohio, indiana, Illinios? I would like the people that are SURE there are cougers here to explain in detail how a breeding population of cougers can go undeteded in a very poplulated state instead of saying "they are here".
Please help us understand the reasoning.
thanks folks-

[TC-fisherman]

Linda,

I'm ready your sunday article in the eagle.

Its talking about wolves, cougars, and wolverines.

In it you write that "the agency (DNR) has no concrete proof that any of these species exist in the wild's of Michigan's lower peninsula"

did your article get edited or something cause its also talks about finding a wolf in presque Isle county.

what does it take to prove to the dnr that a species exists?

[BVW]

A wolf that crosses the ice from the UP does not confirm a breeding population of cougers in michigan.
You have to understand why some of us don't think there are breeding cougers here. No proof for 100 years, where do they hide? they are not all that illusive of an animal, other states with cougers have no trouble finding them, why are our cougers so special?? Sure there could be a couger or 2 loose in the wild, or perhaps one wonders over from far far away, but to have a species of 100 pound cats living and breeding we would need a good amount of cats, not 1 in monroe and 1 in the dunes. Cougers die, and need to reproduce with other cougers to maintain existance. They also have to breed with non-related cougers so a small community of cougers is not possible . If there were enough to maintain a population the population would increase due to no natural predators especially over 100 years.
This is 1 reason why i believe we don't have a breeding population, not because uncle billybob saw one while snipe hunting.

[Linda G.]

what was in that article was correct.

They found a wolf in Presque Isle County in October, but the trapper who caught it in the coyote trap shot it...then they found what they were certain was a pair of tracks in that same area in December, but have not been able to find any sign of those wolves, or any others, since then.

So, no proof that wolves currently exist in the Lower Peninsula. The one that did was shot. What happened to the others, who knows, maybe they went back to the UP, maybe they died...but they can't find them.

[Buddy Lee]

what was in that article was correct.

They found a wolf in Presque Isle County in October, but the trapper who caught it in the coyote trap shot it...then they found what they were certain was a pair of tracks in that same area in December, but have not been able to find any sign of those wolves, or any others, since then.

So, no proof that wolves currently exist in the Lower Peninsula. The one that did was shot. What happened to the others, who knows, maybe they went back to the UP, maybe they died...but they can't find them.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Trophy Specialist]

Every thread you start on this site seems to question the DNR or any type of government agency, no matter what the subject, your latest being the increase in hunting and fishing fees. .
Evidently you have not read the majority of my posts on this forum then. I will certainly point out issues where I feel the DNR is not doing their jobs right, especially if they are being decietfull. As for the mater of raising hunting and fishing fees: If the DNR is using false data to push that agenda through, then I would be remiss to ignore it. I saw the DNR fraudulently fudge the numbers on Lake Erie’s walleyes last year to push through their politically motivated spring walleye closure on Michigan’s waters and they got away with it without any uproar from the media. Why was that? It appears that the DNR is at it again by fudging deer hunter numbers in Michigan to push through their agenda. If it is true, then I think that it deserves to be exposed. You’re an investigative reporter, so why don’t you do what you do best and dig into these issues and do a story on it instead of rehashing the same old “no proof of cougars in Michigan story line”.


But what we've seen so far isn't proof. There's been some indications, some hair on a car in the UP, and a whole lot of conjecture and wild claims, and that's it.
With that statment you have singlehandedly insulted thousands of eyewitnesses and investigators by saying they are all mistaken or lying. :(

[BuckBass]

There is only one way to come up with a cougar, hunt it! Seems like if the DNR had some sort of tracking season, one would be found. Tree it, dart it, there is your cougar!! There are lots of houndsmen in this state, that would probable love to run thier dogs. A two week period should come up with something if there are cougars in Michigan. Even if it had to be opened to out of state trackers. However it would probably be hard to make it happen since there are "no" Cougars in Michigan, so how could one be tracked?The DNR is already doing exactly this! Two years into the program and they still havn't been on the scent of one let alone tree one. They also respond to the majority of cougar "sightings" with trained dogs in hopes of treeing one and getting a collar on it.

[BuckBass]

With that statment you have singlehandedly insulted thousands of eyewitnesses and investigators by saying they are all mistaken or lying.Yet insulting thousands of state employees is fair game?

[Big50blaster]

The DNR has known bout cougars for meny years. They has been sittin on there hands at the least. DNR employees has had dNA and track evidence back to the 1980s. Bob Butz has a book called beast of never cat of god. He aint no mwc friend but he makes it clear that they does have evidence and that the dNR has evidence two. Facts is facts and truth is truth read his book.

They is cougars in our state!

[Swamp Monster]

. Facts is facts and truth is truth read his book.


:lol: :lol:
Heck someone printed it in a book....must be the truth! :lol: After all these years, Michael Moore must be telling the truth......it's right there in a book!

[swampbuck]

The DNR is already doing exactly this! Two years into the program and they still havn't been on the scent of one let alone tree one. They also respond to the majority of cougar "sightings" with trained dogs in hopes of treeing one and getting a collar on it.

a friend reported fresh tracks about a year ago and they didnt come out or send dogs. these tracks were less than 1 day old. notice the dnr comments. heres a link http://www.houghtonlakeresorter.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11106151&BRD=2053&PAG=461&dept_id=382906&rfi=8


I dont think they are looking too hard. while doing a internet search for cougars in michigan I came acrross several articles were dnr personel acknowledged theyre presence. maybe I will collect all the links and see how they add up.

[BVW]

You all know we don't have Cougers here, geez. :dizzy: This is getting silly, DNR conspericies, magical disapearing cougers, goodness.
If there are a few pets loose it is very important that they are captured, due to the fact they have lost the fear of humans makes them very dangerous. If there was a potential killer in my backyard i think i would do something about it. It seems like the people that see them just say " i saw one" and don't follow up on it. I don't know anyone that would just let a couger walk through their land and not do something about it, especially with the potential of one of them killing a kid or pet. I dont think they will be riduculed like some say, 75 % of the people think there are cougers here anyway, why would they get ridiculed??
Can't just one person find tracks in snow?? then follow them? why is this soo hard?? don't even need dogs, with the number of cougers some of you claim we have here this would be childsplay.
Just curious why are some of you guys soo sure of them being here? I can be pretty sure they are not do to the lack of evidence and sign of cougers here, which would be everywhere if we did have a breeding population like other states. I think just because the DNR says they are not here makes some say they are here. Just like when people complain about how many deer we have here in the state and claim the DNR is jerking us around.
I dont think some people understand what it takes to have a breeding population of cougers here. I think they ignore that issue and focus on sightings.
Nothing personal to anyone here, we are all sportsmen, we are all in the same boat, but i think sometimes people like to rock the boat a little.
good luck Kids :grouphug:

From artical above:
" Ray Rustom of the DNR Wildlife Division in Lansing said the department continues to take information on cougar sightings, but there has not been evidence found to confirm a breeding population of the big cats. He said that on many occasions when technicians and biologists have been sent into the field to view tracks purported to have been left by cougars, they have turned out to be the tracks of other species.

Rustom said that although reports of sightings and tracks have come from all over the state, the department’s annual winter furbearer survey, which counts tracks on over 800 miles of road and trail, and its annual wolf track survey have never turned up a single cougar track.

[Trophy Specialist]

I don't know anyone that would just let a couger walk through their land and not do something about it, especially with the potential of one of them killing a kid or pet.
Cougars are an endangered species in Michigan. If you "do something" about a cougar then you might be in violation of the Federal Endangered Species Act and could be charged with a crime. The same thing holds true if you kill a rattle snake on your property. They are endangerd too in MI.

[BVW]

I didnt say kill it.This is what i said "If there are a few pets loose it is very important that they are captured"
i would call some guys will hounds and have them tree it. If you called the DNR or ADC and said you have a treed couger i think they would be on their way.
good luck kids

[Linda G.]

Using the Endangered Species Act is something of a cop-out, Mike. A lot of things are on the Endangered Species List in Michigan, but we still know we have them.

And cars and other things that would kill a cougar that would prove their existence in Michigan don't know anything about the Endangered Species Act...

This just goes round and round, and we never get anywhere...

[woodsrat]

I found this information interesting. It seems our Canadian neighbors are having the same issues about Cougars as we are. They confirm the existance of Cougar in Quebec now that they have collected hair (DNA). It sounds like there may be some difficulties telling the difference in DNA between the various sub-species of Cougar in North America. Check out the video on the last link (upper right of screen).

The Canadians placed poles in the woods covered with velcro and Cougar urine and collected definate Cougar hair when an animal rubbed up against the pole. Does anyone know if that technique has been done in Michigan?

www.animal.discovery.com/news/afp/20050228/cougars.html (http://www.animal.discovery.com/news/afp/20050228/cougars.html)

www.easterncougarnet.org/QuebecPR-corrections.htm (http://www.easterncougarnet.org/QuebecPR-corrections.htm)

www.easterncougarnet.org/gaspe.htm (http://www.easterncougarnet.org/gaspe.htm)

www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/12/29/cougar021229 (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/12/29/cougar021229)

[Trophy Specialist]

The Canadians placed poles in the woods covered with velcro and Cougar urine and collected definate Cougar hair when an animal rubbed up against the pole. Does anyone know if that technique has been done in Michigan?
The MI DNR collected hair samples at baited sites from bears in MI for DNA testing and were very sucessful at doing so. I havn't heard of any such projects being done with cougars in MI. You have to keep in mind though that only reciently, with the appointment of the new dirrector Becky Humphries, did the DNR do an about-face and take a public stance saying that there are in fact wild cougars in Michigan. That might pave the way for the DNR to start some research to try to locate and determine how many cougars there are in the state.

[D_Hunter]

Take a look at my photos... You decide if there are Cougars in Michigan.
(couldn't remember how to post pics in here...sorry)

These pictures are from the Highland Rec. Area in Oakland county.

I know what the DNR Wildlife biologist told me...but what do you think??

[markbouman]

:lol: :lol:
Heck someone printed it in a book....must be the truth! :lol: After all these years, Michael Moore must be telling the truth......it's right there in a book!

That's funny!

[woodsrat]

Take a look at my photos... You decide if there are Cougars in Michigan.
(couldn't remember how to post pics in here...sorry)

These pictures are from the Highland Rec. Area in Oakland county.

I know what the DNR Wildlife biologist told me...but what do you think??

What did the biologist tell you?

[Trophy Specialist]

After running this pole for a while, it's interesting to compare the results to those of a similar pole I ran last year.

2004 - No Cougars = 21.52%, Yes Cougars 66.68%, Not Sure = 14.80%
2005 - No Cougars = 14.29%, Yes Cougars 67.15%, Not Sure = 18.57%

It seems like, according to these poles, the people that believe that there are no wild cougars in Michigan dropped by 33% in the past year.

[wyle_e_coyote]

Yes, It seems that YES COUGARS only went up .5%.
Looks like more people are just confused about the whole thing.. +4.3%

[markbouman]

After running this pole for a while, it's interesting to compare the results to those of a similar pole I ran last year.

2004 - No Cougars = 21.52%, Yes Cougars 66.68%, Not Sure = 14.80%
2005 - No Cougars = 14.29%, Yes Cougars 67.15%, Not Sure = 18.57%

It seems like, according to these poles, the people that believe that there are no wild cougars in Michigan dropped by 33% in the past year.

Since when does 75 people constitute "masses"? :confused:

[Trophy Specialist]

Since when does 75 people constitute "masses"? :confused:
Nowhere do I mention "masses", so I don't know where you got that from. This is just a "for fun", non-scientific, opinion poll of the sportsmen on this forum. My guess is that if a cross section of Michigan were to be be poled in Michigan that the results would be quite different.

[D_Hunter]

The biologist (2 of them) looked at the photos and were 90%+ sure that the tracks were that of a cougar.

There is supposed to be a "team" of biologists that are going to do further investigation(s) in this area.

[Adam Waszak]

Seems to me that these biologist are really slow to do anything quickly. The minute they had a report or the cougar sightings and the tracks in the snow they should have been on that thing with dogs or looking from the air or something. Just like whn one gets hit by a car, get dogs on it and see what is going on. I think there are cougars ou there but it is a little fishy they can't get one already and dart the thing or something to take blood etc from it and get some answers. I hope someday we will get quality info to support or throw the claims out.

AW

[MTUstudent]

I think everybody is missing the real issue with cougars in Michigan. It is certainly evident that cougars are in Michigan. I hunt in the UP and have seen a cougar while bowhunting and know of many others that have had the same experience. It is no question they are in the UP and there is a sustainable population. For the LP, it's probably the same by the thoughts of everybody in this forum. But everybody is wondering why the stubborn DNR doesn't claim that they are in the Michigan. One reason. MONEY!!!

For the DNR to admit that cougars live in the UP means that they would need to include them in a population study and spend alot of money coming up with a management plan for the cougar population. This is something you can't get around. This is something the DNR doesn't want to do considering their financial situation now. Would you like the DNR to acknowledge cougars in Michigan and see your liscense rates continue to rise. They're already on the rise without this issue. So wouldn't it be better if we understand the situation the DNR is in with this issue and let it go to protect our own interests?
:)

[Dedge]

Hey MTUstudent, I live in Houghton county and was just curious where you spotted the cougar while bow hunting?

Thanks,
Dan

[MTUstudent]

Dedge,

I've seen one bowhunting not far from the Painsedale school. I thought it was a deer at first until it came into the open and I could see it's long tail. It was pretty cool to see, it took off after that. A buddy of mine has also seen one out toward Redridge.

[markbouman]

The term "masses" came from your title heading from 9:33 am yesterday.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to harass anyone, it's just interesting to see folks jump on the bandwagon (cougars in MI) without any scientific proof. I know there's cougars in MI - the question remains ARE THEY WILD AND BREEDING?