Anti dove hunting article

[DuckMan]

This article was in today's Flint Journal. I think maybe he needs a few e-mails and phone calls proclaiming the real truth.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/545/19toolbag.jpg

My favorite line from the article:
Dove shooting is known to produce orphaned young who will starve in the nest.
What a toolbag. :bash: Let him know your thoughts: william.mcmullin@wmich.edu or (517) 321-3683

Since I am no scientist, I looked around a little bit and found this article on hunting impact:
http://www.stormingmedia.us/64/6462/A646223.html

Because a decline in nests found in the latter half of the nesting season preceded the 1 September start of hunting, we concluded that the reduction in nesting activity at the end of the season is a natural phenomenon and is not caused by hunting disturbance.

I thought this might interest those on this forum. Was I right? ;)

[Huntsman27]

read my reply to this foolishness within a few days. I have replied before to the Journal about this very subject in the past and will continue to do so. I loved the part about killing the parents while squabs are in the nest......I wasnt aware dove season is still open??? These tree hugging fools drive me up the wall.

[swamphunter]

I just came across this article in the Journal while I'm eating dinner and brought it in my computer room to type it on this forum. I thought everyone would get a kick out of it. I would like to know what "hunting organizations" are trying to stop the hunting. I will be sending Mr. McMullin a nice e-mail.

[Buddy Lee]

I don't think that's an article...it looks more like a letter to the editor, or at least an opinion piece.

[dyemen]

Here are some organizations that print Fact rather than Fiction......Dove sportsman society (http://www.dovesociety.org/dove/index.cfm?CFID=101471&CFTOKEN=86742401)

MUCC Dove Q&A (http://www.mucc.org/DoveHuntingQA.htm)


MI Dove Hunters (http://www.midovehunt.com/)

Check out these websites for facts and help support Michigans Dove Season!
Dave

[Zeboy]

"The orphaned young" arguement always cracks me up. Explain to me how a dove still in the nest in September is either going to be strong enough to fly South for the winter . . . or be strong enough to survive a Michigan Winter.

What a bunch of rubish!!!!

[bobcolenso]

Yea, their "orphaned young" arguement makes about as much sense as their "target practice" argument.


"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them."

[Pigpen69]

I just sent off my email to Mr McMullin asking for the Interview tapes of the Orphaned young doves that he must have spoken too first hand. I was almost to the point of suggesting to him a couple of good dove recipes, But I dont Have any. :lol: I did not say that too him though I let him know I personally did Not hunt doves, But I support any and all who DO.

[Gobblerman]

I don't think that's an article...it looks more like a letter to the editor, or at least an opinion piece.


I would have to agree with Buddy Lee, that's the problem when news media outlets voice their opinions prior to gaining facts. This guy has no idea of the facts about doves or dove hunting. People who dove hunt, hunt for the sport but also for the meat. Target practice, give me a break. He needs a reality check.

[Randy Kidd]

"The Dove of Peace" tag always irks me also, The Mourning Dove is NOT the "Dove of Peace" That moniker belongs to the Turtle dove, Which are about as closely related as Bengal Tigers are to House Cats..The whole article is as about as fact based as the funny papers.
And the statement that "more than 200,000 doves were bagged" is Not what the DNR reports on it's web site..The actual DNR figure is 28,139, a far cry from the either mis-informed or outright inflamatory lie that this buffoon claims.

[wyle_e_coyote]

Problem is..All of US know that the "Orphaned young" statement is grossly incorrect, but people that are not informed of the truth will believe the first thing they read. People that know enough about doves to see through that statement are either pro-hunting or anti-hunting. The people that don't care either way are the ones that are being targeted with these lies. We need to make these people aware of true facts. Then they will see that the antis need to lie and mislead to get support.

[Huntsman27]

in rebuttals to these grossly exaggerated falsehoods. Its all scare tactics........also the emphasis about lead poisoning.

[Blue Mist]

I sent Mr McMullin an e-mail asking whether he knew the statements he made were false or whether he suffered from a lack of knowledge. He replied he is a student at Western Michigan majoring in environmental studies. Guess we know it wasn't a lack of knowledge he is suffering from. By the way, he isn't too busy, he was able to reply overnight. Can't we give him a few more e-mails to answer?

Randy

[dyemen]

If I was to spend the energy....I would submit a letter to the editor of the newspaper.....send enough rebuttals to this article and it will be much more effective in "educating" the non-hunting community than attacking one person. I woiuld follow the guidelines set forth by the newspaper and include links(if it is allowed in the guidelines) to support the FACTS. Just the fact that there are lots of people out there that support dove hunting will make the non-hunting crowd think twice about supporting the ANTI's....nobody wants to be on the loosing team;)

[dyemen]

http://www.flintjournal.com/ask/index.html#LettertoEditor


Trust me, it will be a bigger impact directing letters to the newspaper than emailing this single person.

Dave:)

[Randy Kidd]

This is the letter that I sent to the Editor...

Your published article “Join effort to save Michigan’s beloved doves” is so far removed from scientific fact, and so fraught with outright blatant lies, that it boggles the mind.
First of all let’s get a few facts straight. Doves are from the Family of Pigeons, The Mourning Dove (Zenaida Macroura) is a wild bird, This is NOT the “bird of peace” Which is the White Dove (Streptopelia Risoria) In reality a White Dove is actually a Ringneck Dove with a white mutation. These are domestic birds developed for their white mutation.
The statement that “200,000 birds were bagged in Michigan” is either an outright lie or so poorly researched that the difference is moot. According to the reports posted on the DNR web site the total dove harvest for Michigan was 28,139, that is a far cry from the astronomical numbers you published.
The statement that “both hunting organizations and animal welfare organizations are working together stop the shooting of doves” Although I can not at this time prove that no hunting organizations are working to stop “the shooting of doves”, I welcome a response from you as to which hunting organizations are, If you could please provide the names of these “organizations” and their locations.
The statement “The only reason for this in-humane hunt is target practice” This statement is not only a slanderous lie, it is demeaning and an outright slap in the face to the MILLIONS of ethical sportspersons in this State. Shooting Doves for “target practice” is not only illegal it is immoral and un-ethical, I have hunted doves in more than 5 states, I have been on literally hundreds of Dove hunts, I have met perhaps 2000 dove hunters in my life, I have never seen, witnessed, or even heard of a hunter (outside of anti-hunters saying it is done) doing this.
The statement “dove shooting is known to produce orphaned young who will starve in their nests” 99% of Mourning Doves are fledged prior to Michigan’s September 10th dove season, Those birds that have not fledged will not survive the winter, since they have fledged so late they will be unable to migrate south.
While I am at it let me clear up a few other misconceptions about dove HUNTING. Not one state that has had dove HUNTING has ever experienced a decline in dove numbers, they are prolific breeders, and they cause millions of dollars in crop damage nation wide. The doves that you see in your yards, and at your bird feeders are likely NEVER to see a hunter. These birds have made your neighborhoods their homes; they will stay there until they migrate south, which is long after the short Michigan hunting season. The notion that camo clad “gun nuts” crawling around grandma’s backyard bird feeder trying to shoot the “bird of peace” just for “target practice” is a popular image that anti hunting activists like to paint. This is not only a blatant lie, it is a lie that can be easily disproved, all one has to do is some research. A skill that some obviously have not developed.

Randy J. Kidd
Howell, Mi.

[swamphunter]

Excellent letter!! :yeahthat:

[Huntsman27]

A very good rebuttal. I hope ours appear the same day! When I read the paper and saw the opin in question I about blew a nut. The wife knew exactly what it was.....another Opin?? all I could do was nod.

[omega58]

Excellent letter!! :yeahthat:
:yeahthat:

[Ferg]

Mr. Kidd - very well done - BZ.

ferg....

[wyle_e_coyote]

Nice Job Randy !! I hope it makes the paper!

[dyemen]

In Response to Mr. McMullen's "Join effort to save Michigan's beloved doves", (http://www.mlive.com/columns/fljournal/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1109780470193060.xml, March 2, 2005). I Seriously question the intergrity of his letter and wonder if his gross neglect was more partial to exploiting people's emotions rather than printing "true" facts about dove hunting. The DNR estimated the Dove harvest for the last fall to be Aproximately 28,000 doves, rather than the decieving number of over 200,000 that Mr. Mcmullen used. As for the rest of his letter...here are the real facts:
Hunted or not, the life expectancy of a dove is a little less than one year, with more than half the population dying during any 12-month period. This is because the dove has a natural mortality rate of nearly 70 percent through predation, disease, adverse weather, and accidents. Like other game species, doves cannot be “stockpiled”. If that six percent weren’t taken by hunters, in all likelihood, it would be removed by predation, disease and other mortality factors. (mucc, http://www.mucc.org/DoveHuntingQA.htm)

For the size of the meat: A dove’s breast is surprisingly large and very tasty. Furthermore, the size of any food item does not diminish its desirability. The bluegill is small, but is one of the most sought after game fish in Michigan(mucc, http://www.mucc.org/DoveHuntingQA.htm) How about shruimp.

As for nesting in September: A nationwide State-Federal cooperative study was initiated in 1978 to examine effects of September hunting on nesting mourning doves (Zenaida macroura). This study was designed to (1) determine the proportion of the annual total of dove nesting activity and production that occurs in September and October, and (2) determine if survival rates of mourning dove eggs and nestlings are lower in zones where early September dove hunting is permitted than in zones where it is prohibited. During 1979 and 1980, 6,950 active nests were monitored to obtain data on nesting patterns. Nest initiation was estimated using two measurements, backdating from hatch dates and counting numbers of nests found for the first time. The nationwide percentage of the annual total of nests that were initiated in September and October was 1.0% based on backdating from hatch dates and 2.7% based on nests found for the first time. Nesting activity was measured by numbers of eggs and nestlings present in weekly counts. Nationally, 4.5% of the annual nesting activity occurred in September and October. The activity of 80% of the observed nests was within the period of 22 April to 4 September. The measure of production used in this study was numbers of young fledged. Nationally, 10.3% of all observed fledging occurred in September and October. Because a decline in nests found in the latter half of the nesting season preceded the 1 September start of hunting, we concluded that the reduction in nesting activity at the end of the season is a natural phenomenon and is not caused by hunting disturbance. In a separate part of this study, we estimated survival rates in adjacent hunted and nonhunted zones from data on 668 nests.(Storming Media, http://www.stormingmedia.us/64/6462/A646223.html)

I would everyone to look at the facts rather than somebody's opinion when looking at this controversial topic. Here are some links that offer facts:
michigan Dove hunters- http://www.midovehunt.com/index.htm
MUCC- http://www.mucc.org/DoveHuntingQA.htm
Thanks for your time,
Dave Dyer

[DuckMan]

I knew this post would get a productive response. Good work guys.

I find it interesting that he is a student working in the field I would expect to get more fact-based answers. Must be a freshman. :D

Please post your replies here from this guy or the Journal. When I get mine, I'll post it here.

[wyle_e_coyote]

Great letter dyemen!

Why is a environmental studies major from K-zoo writing to a paper in Flint anyway? It seems that is where all the Anti-dove hunting activity has been.
I have not seen anything around Berrien Co. I talked to friends that live in Cass Co. and they have not seen and Petitions be pushed on people around there either. That is 2 counties where there is a open Dove season and no one seems to realy care.
I think it is funny that none of these people even question the fact that there in no closed season or bag limit on Starlings(and some other birds)... when I was a kid I bet I killed 1000's of them to keep them out of my mothers bird feeder, and other birds nest.. now my son has taken over that job. One year my brother and I kept count. I shot over 400 birds and he was some where in the 350's. Not to mention the ones my father and mother shot... still have them damn fethered rats swarming every year. They don't even taste good...;)

[dyemen]

Those birds make a mess......they are constantly roosting in my father's barn! They fly down and land in the water buckets to get a drink and defecate in the water. We don't leave our bags of feed open because they land on it and eat the feed....crapping all over the place. They are a serious nusiance.

[Huntsman27]

see the Opin page the next few days. Thanks to all who stepped up! Rich

[Neal]

Letter sent

[Ron84]

Please post your replies here from this guy or the Journal. When I get mine, I'll post it here.
Set him an email the other night to update him on the facts - got this back:
Maybe you'd like to be a little more educated...probably not, but if so, go to http://www.stopshootingdoves.org/facts.htm.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[mehMan]

i sent an e mail to mr mcmullin today with a few questions, heres the body of my e mail:

"just had a few questions about your article in the Journal about Dove hunting

1. Could you please tell me the name of the hunting organizations that want to ban dove hunting?

2. where did find that 200,000 doves were harvested this last season? i found numbers closer to 28,139. a website or someone i could contact would be nice.

3. what is the exact wounding rate for doves? and if you knew the wounding rate for other game birds as well for comparison i would appreciate it.

4. you say that the hunting season will produce orpahned, i was under the impression that the young would be strong enough to survive on their own by the time the sept. 10 season starts. Am i wrong? if i am please send me a link so i can research this matter more.

Thank you in advance I look forward to hearing from you!"

i stayed very polite because i really wanted a reply from him and this was what he sent me

"Thanks for your interest. Answers to all of your questions are available at www.stopshootingdoves.org. You'll want to look at the fact sheet and the endorsements page."

i checked out the facts sheets but not many of my questions were answered very well.

[dyemen]

Where are the statistics...those are all just opinions.....like the last one: There are plenty of other species for hunters to shoot in the state. Pheasants, geese, ducks, woodcock and dozens of other bird species give recreational hunters more than ample shooting opportunities in Michigan. In fact, hunting seasons are longer and bag limits are larger than ever for many species.
What is factual about this statement??! We should cut and paste rebuttals(proven Facts) to each of these "facts" and submit that to the Flint Journal. LOL!!!

[DuckMan]

Set him an email the other night to update him on the facts - got this back:


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


All he sent me back was the link to that site as well. It will be interesting to see if the Journal prints anything we have sent them.

[Randy Kidd]

If that anti hunting site is the only place he has retreived his data from then he is a worse researcher than I thought he was..I would love to hear or see any data from independent (not funded by the anti faction) sources. Of course this will never happen in the case of Dove hunting, While there are literally dozens of independent (not funded by anybody connected to hunting or anti) studies of dove populations, effects of hunting/predation, crop damage, all of which support the idea that managed hunting does not pose a risk to dove populations..But data it's self don't get it done..this is more of an emotional matter, proof be damned! :sad:

[Zeboy]

Great job guys!!!

For those of us that don't see the Flint paper please keep us posted if your letters make it in. It is great to see us taking action on this! I have written a couple letters in the past to the GR paper. Unfortunately the antis usually outnumber us 2 - 1 in number of letters - our content blows them away though.

Hopefully it won't ever get on the ballot. If it does, our willingness to speak up and educate the people who "don't care" will be the difference.

[rzdrmh]

interesting read at the US Fish and Wildlife Service web page. To those worried about the impact of hunting on migratory birds, consider:

- the greatest threat to migratory birds is loss of habitat. (As we know, habitat developement is funded primarily by hunters. That's well documented)
- building window collisions cause as many as 97 to 976 million bird deaths a year
- strikes at high tension transmission and distribution power lines very conservatively kill tens of thousands of birds annually.
- electrocutions cause tens of thousands of bird deaths annually.
- in a recent study, pesticides were estimated to result in the direct death of at least 72 million birds annually (delayed deaths from poisoned prey, orphaned chicks, and neurological problems not included, and the study site was limited.)
- up to 2 million birds are killed annually in oil and wastewater pits, mainly in the western states
- cats. a recent study in wisconsin estimated that in that state alone, domestic rural cats kill roughly 39 million birds annually. add the deaths caused by feral cats, or domestic cats in urban and suburban areas, and this mortality figure would be much higher.

Additionally, the US Fish and Wildlife department recognizes the contribution of hunters. Information from their website states that:
- since 1986, partners including the US Fish and Wildlife Service, hunters, conservation groups and local and state agencies have invested more than 1.5 billion to protect, restore, enhance and manage more than five million acres of wetlands and associated uplands. A portion of that investment has also gone to research and monitor specific populations of waterfowl, and to provide environmental education and conservation planning.
- In fact, their opening statement in the document titled: "How Hunters Benefit Many Migratory Bird Species", reads verbatim, as follows:
"As our appreciation of migratory birds and our understanding of their role in the natural world grows, it's important to recognize the critical contributions of sportsmen to migratory bird conservation efforts. For more than 60 years, hunters have provided a steady stream of revenue to build the National Wildlife Refuge System, and to restore waterfowl habitat on millions of acres of public and private lands across the country. These habitat projects also benefit migratory songbirds and other wildlife."


yes, these facts came directly from the US F&W Service web page. And to think, people actually believe that hunters taking a few million birds really impacts things.

for those interested in keeping track of the story, watch
www.mlive.com
you can select the newspaper you want to read, and just do a search on "dove". thus far, the only additional item is a correction of the number of doves harvested last year.

[DuckMan]

I hate corrections. I missed it so I am sure the majority of people missed it as well. It reminds me of court cases where a lawyer would say something they KNOW will get stricken from the record, but they still want the jury to hear it. People have a hard time forgetting the original statement.

I am watching the paper so I'll let everyone know if I see anything.

[dyemen]

interesting read at the US Fish and wildlife.........
yes, these facts came directly from the US F&W Service web page. And to think, people actually believe that hunters taking a few million birds really impacts things.



Somebody should submit that for an article! Feral cats are a problem in a lot of places! I love it when the tree huggers tell you how mean/cruel you are for shooting poor defensless birds, yet their cat is outside playing with a half dead bird/mouse and then abandons to find another one! As for the Flint journal, I will bet...unless you live in their subscription area....they will not look twice at your letter. SO..........if you live in an area that the Flint Journal is published/sold, I enourage you to write a letter! If enough people send them letters to show their disgust and outrage....they can't ignore us! Newspapers are not news, just propaganda to stir emotion(they serve only to those who agree with the newspapers agenda) ! That's why I don't get the Kalamazoo Gazette!
Dave

[Neal]

I just got a call from the Flint Journal verifying that I sent the letter....looks like they might print it.

Neal

[7MM Magnum]

I also e-mail him a piece of my mind as well ! :16suspect :D

[DuckMan]

I just got a call from the Flint Journal verifying that I sent the letter....looks like they might print it.

Neal

Glad to see someone got some sort of response. I was beginning to wonder. :rolleyes: I hadn't seen anything since this all started.

They run an Outdoor section every Thursday and David Graham writes for the Journal so I had to believe there are some sane people with some correct facts at the place.

[3006]

Here is my reply. Hopefully he will spend some waste some time trying to write me back.
I have hunted doves the past 5 years here in Ohio. It is fun, they taste great, and we hardly make a dent in the population. Heck, if they really want to save the doves, they need to start a fight in Argentina!!!

I was just wanting to get some more information on dove hunting in Michigan and why it is so bad and cruel. Could you please provide answers to the following questions so I can make an informed decision about this issue?

Proof of orphaned doves in the nest because the parents were shot. Last I knew, all the doves hatched in Michigan have been out of the nest at least a month or more before the September hunting season.

Proof that the mourning dove is the "bird of peace". I think you are confused with the turtle dove that is not hunted.

Where can I find the harvest estimates from the DNR that they had after the approved season?

Can you please send me a list of the hunting organizations that are working to stop dove hunting? I would love to contact them.

How much meat is actually on a dove. Have you ever had any to really know? Do you even eat meat?

What is the wounding rate hunters have for doves? Are you including the birds that are actually taken as being wounded or just the birds that are lost and not found?

Did you ask any hunters why they were dove hunting in Michigan? Did they say that they were just shooting them for target practice?

Do you really think putting it on the ballot will get dove hunting banned in Michigan? That is what they thought in Ohio and it passed by an overwhelming margin and now the entire state is open for dove hunting with a much longer season than was proposed for Michigan.

Thanks for your help answering these questions I have,

Michael Walker
Abercrombie & Fitch and Hollister Co.

[3006]

Here is the response I got from him. Typical letting someone else speak for him since it seems obvious he knows nothing about the subject or how they got their information. Notice he mentioned that most of my questions were personal and he couldn't provide answers to them. Go figure....

I am wondering what questions I asked were so personal that they could not be answered?

here is his response:


All your answers should be available at www.stopshootingdoves.org.

Some of the questions you asked were of a more personal matter. I cannot
answer them due to the fact that the answers vary among everyone in the
organization.

[7MM Magnum]

Now that figures,... a typical response from a person who knows NOTHING about the subject ! :rant:

All they know how to do is refer you to a home based website to research it yourself with the responses THEY want you to hear!! :bash: :rant:



What a bunch of idiots !!! :16suspect

[DuckMan]

I just got a call from the Flint Journal verifying that I sent the letter....looks like they might print it.

Neal

You were right Neal. Your letter was printed in the paper yesterday.

Here is a link to your letter:
http://www.mlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1110817234160070.xml?fljournal?NELE

Good job Neal.

[Randy Kidd]

Well done Neal, Concise and to the point.

[Mickey Finn]

Well done Neal, Concise and to the point.
:yeahthat:

[7MM Magnum]

Good letter,... glad someones got written up and put into print from our side!! :coolgleam

That's a rareity in itself!!



:yeahthat:

[wyle_e_coyote]

Thanks for stepping up Neal!! and everyone else!

[Neal]

"What gives Mr. Brooks the right to choose what blesses his dinner table?

LMAO.....full letter here:


http://www.mlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1113405706117820.xml?fljournal?NELE

[spk131]

Now their turning it into an issue of religion. If god found it to be a sin to kill doves and any other animal for that matter, then all religious hunters and fishers have been sinning for centuries. That is including my priest who loves to fish or my uncles priest always talks about his hunting stories with my uncle. Obviously this is something new to religions that they have never known of before.

[dyemen]

"How does Mr. Brooks know that God condones this type of blessing"
Maybe because God ordained us to rule over the animals....Animals are not equal to Man! Maybe Mr Schulz should read a little more of his bible and learn how God has blessed many with the creatures of the earth!

[omega58]

I just have to borrow a little scripture from Roger (B*******)'s signature that fits well in this.

He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of fourfooted animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” - Acts 10:11-13

[Randy Kidd]

I wonder if Mr. Brooks is a vegan?, I wonder if he owns anything with leather, Shoes, belts, car seats, ect? And if he is WHO GAVE HIM THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE?. That's the problem with dealing with these types of individuals, "They are holier than thou" and they preceive themselves on a higher spriitual plane than anyone who disagrees with them, They are lost inside their own convuluted self righteous minds. There is no reaching them.

[Buddy Lee]

"What gives Mr. Brooks the right to choose what blesses his dinner table?

"YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE WHAT YOU EAT, BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOU'VE BEEN EATING!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

So typical of today's society.

[Neal]

I wonder if Mr. Brooks is a vegan?, I wonder if he owns anything with leather, Shoes, belts, car seats, ect? And if he is WHO GAVE HIM THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE?. That's the problem with dealing with these types of individuals, "They are holier than thou" and they preceive themselves on a higher spriitual plane than anyone who disagrees with them, They are lost inside their own convuluted self righteous minds. There is no reaching them.

Hey, Hey, Hey......I think you meant Mr. Schultz ....Mr. Brooks is my pen name. I don't use my full last name as i have received death threats in the past.

I wonder if god gave clearance to Mr Schultz's Cheesburger last night?

[Randy Kidd]

Hey, Hey, Hey......I think you meant Mr. Schultz ....Mr. Brooks is my pen name. I don't use my full last name as i have received death threats in the past.

I wonder if god gave clearance to Mr Schultz's Cheesburger last night?


DOH!!!! MY Bad Neal....My sincerest apologies... :bash: :bash:

[Buddy Lee]

i have received death threats in the past.

Join the club. :bash:

[ESOX]

"YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE WHAT YOU EAT, BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOU'VE BEEN EATING!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

So typical of today's society.


:yeahthat:


"What gives Mr. Brooks the right to choose what blesses his dinner table? "


Perhaps he should try reading a little document we call the Constitution.